Forums - MvC2: Top tier and 2nd tier thread Show all 198 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- MvC2: Top tier and 2nd tier thread (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55233) Posted by Pryde on 02:20:2002 10:31 PM: MvC2: Top tier and 2nd tier thread Most of y'all know who are the besic top tiers. The lists below are not top tier order, cuz I'd rather not argue who's higher than who. Magneto Storm Sentinel Cable Spiral Stryder Black Heart Dr.Doom Cyclops 2nd tier characters, once again not in any specific order. Juggernaut (Glitch) Cammy Ice Man Ruby Heart Omega Red Iron Man Tron Bonne Marrow (yes i believe she's up there) Dhalsim Psylocke MegaMan Well there are more, but it's all debatable. Well if y'all need any help or strategies with these characters, just post and I'll see what I can do. Posted by Juggrknott on 02:20:2002 10:48 PM: MARROW, & no Hulk?! Blasphemy! Sacrilege! I'd love to hear the Marrow case, though. If you're up for it, that is... thanks. -Jugg Posted by Dasrik on 02:20:2002 11:23 PM: 2nd Tier is huge in MvC2. I'd designate second tier as characters who have solid strategies and patterns that aren't dominated by a "I beat this character with a cute little trick" type of gimmick. Here's who I'd put in it (it's kind of in order, but don't hold me to it): * Blackheart * Iron Man * Iceman * Dhalsim * Omega Red * Cammy * Guile * War Machine * Megaman * Captain Commando * Juggernaut (glitched) * Psylocke * Jin * Silver Samurai * Wolverines * BB Hood * Tron * Marrow * Rogue * Ken * Venom * Charlie MAYBE PILE: Sakura, Ruby Heart, Gambit, Hulk, SonSon, Morrigan, Colossus, Felicia. Ruby and Felicia are hella gimmicky and I've yet to see anything really solid about them, so they stay in the maybe pile for now. I'll explain myself if you like... Posted by Pryde on 02:20:2002 11:44 PM: Hm.... Dasrik....I'm not holding you any of these listings, but I really don't see how some of the characters listed here should be up there. I think Ken is awesome, but he shouldn't be up there. His assist is top notch, his Air Combo is great, but I doubt any is able to pull of a combo like that in a tourney match. Capcom, same thing with him, great AA, but if it came down to him as last character, he's not all that great. Random captain corridor is hella risky, good chip assist, but other than that.... he's not that solid. Silver Samurai, a great assist killer, too bad he can't fight that well on point. He still deserves 2nd tier. Venom... I still don't see it, besides Jab-Venom fang.... Juggerknott: Marrow is a great assist killer, her super homes as you know already. I personally team Marrow up with Spiral - A, for some good chip damage. Plus if a helper is out and you do marrow homing super + Spiral - A, the knives connect at the end and you get a free air combo on da helper, which you can do a reset combo by just doing the hominh super on the assist, which pretty much kills the assist. Justin rushes down with Marrow and T.bonne which does hella damage and her J.fierce has hella priority. Posted by Dasrik on 02:21:2002 12:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde I think Ken is awesome, but he shouldn't be up there. His assist is top notch, his Air Combo is great, but I doubt any is able to pull of a combo like that in a tourney match. Ken's air hurricane kick is great to rush in with after you draw an AAA out; most characters can't do anything about that on their own. Super DP is a great flinch weapon, especially with a good DHC backing you up. quote: Capcom, same thing with him, great AA, but if it came down to him as last character, he's not all that great. Random captain corridor is hella risky, good chip assist, but other than that.... he's not that solid. Commando is pretty damn solid; it's just that people seem to have forgotten how to use him since MvC1. All he was missing in THAT game is a way to not die for pulling out his moves; since you get assists, you can actually use his moves. Commando's fierces have maddening priority, Sho is a great way to cancel your rush-ins, he has underrated assist killing ability (call assist, Corridor xx delayed Sword is free in most situations if you ever get a clean shot). He has Cable issues, but who doesn't? Oh yeah, Commando beats Blackheart (for free if he has BH assist). Definitely underrated. quote: Silver Samurai, a great assist killer, too bad he can't fight that well on point. He still deserves 2nd tier. He has good on-point abilities. Jump roundhouse has more range than it should, he can chip like a bitch, and you stand to lose a lot of life if he touches you. Couple that with even a decent projectile assist and he's gruesome. Can't fight traps well, though. (P.S. Marrow/Silver Samurai/Sentinel with 3 meters KILLS an assist totally for free if they ever show their face.) quote: Venom... I still don't see it, besides Jab-Venom fang.... Venom Fang is a lot of it. He also has long range and the best snapback in the game (half screen in a blink! If you flinch, you're gone...) Posted by Pryde on 02:21:2002 12:23 AM: intersting about Venom... well, maybe he's over rated, but ttytt (to tell you the truth) i haven't seen a decent venom around here. Capcom:yeah, his Fierces have hella priortiy and his assist killer is not all that great, cuz it leaves him open for an attack, i've played many commandos, so I would have a little argument in this field. Ken:sure, hurricane kick is awesome, but still, he's not that effective, besides his DP super. One Flinch and you're gone, true dat, but he look at rogue, cammy, akuma, juggernaut, and there are some other people who have supers like that, but I still don't think he's up there. Silver Samurai, his moves have hella lag, his SJ.RH is a great cross over, I still have trouble finding which way to block, but the fact is he doesn't have damaging combos besides c.lk, c.mk i think it is into lightning super, but it's hard for him to rush down, but I agree, he's definitly 2nd tier. Posted by Juggrknott on 02:21:2002 12:26 AM: Pryde: Thanks for the response/explanation. Dasrik: Request to hear Hulk's case for the "maybe pile", if you would. Hulk can beat many of the characters in your list, and even has some OK-ish top-tier matchups. Naturally, you're not going to do this pulling random Roundhouse Gamma Charges out of your a$$ or anything, but I think you're really selling him short. Besides, I'm admittedly biased. It would be nice to hear "the other side", and you seem to know your stuff MvC2-wise. So how about it? Thanks.... -Jugg Posted by Dasrik on 02:21:2002 12:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde intersting about Venom... well, maybe he's over rated, but ttytt (to tell you the truth) i haven't seen a decent venom around here. Viscant plays a rather mean Venom, and JoeZaza has had some success using him as well. Any projectile assist will help him, although Sentinel, is, of course, the best. Venom/Sentinel have a kind of ghetto trap, too (s.fierce + call assist, fierce Venom Fang, repeat). quote: Capcom:yeah, his Fierces have hella priortiy and his assist killer is not all that great, cuz it leaves him open for an attack, i've played many commandos, so I would have a little argument in this field. I've played a lot of Commandos too, but very rarely do I find one that isn't using him cause of extenuating circumstances (last man standing, or got snapped in); and they usually just do random corridors, which is of course a fast way to die. I think people just have to rethink the way they use him. Commando/Doom is rather braindead, actually, since you get a good bailout for your lagged moves and you can Corridor people if they try to jump and hit Doom. As for assist punishing, that's why you call a projectile assist first. Sometimes it's worth it to just do it anyway even if you'll get hit. quote: Ken:sure, hurricane kick is awesome, but still, he's not that effective, besides his DP super. One Flinch and you're gone, true dat, but he look at rogue, cammy, akuma, juggernaut, and there are some other people who have supers like that, but I still don't think he's up there. Akuma is not as good as Ken mainly because of his low stamina and his less useful assist. Ken's just the most solid of the shotos since you can actually risk to rush with him (unlike Akuma) and he doesn't rely on a high-risk gimmick to get anywhere (unlike Ryu). Also, Shinryuken is actually good as a bailout DHC since it's totally invincible. There's some solid things Ken has; just nothing really mindblowing aside from his DHC ability and assist. That's why I put him low on the 2nd tier. quote: Silver Samurai, his moves have hella lag, his SJ.RH is a great cross over, I still have trouble finding which way to block, but the fact is he doesn't have damaging combos besides c.lk, c.mk i think it is into lightning super, but it's hard for him to rush down, but I agree, he's definitly 2nd tier. I agree with this. quote: Originally posted by Juggrknott Dasrik: Request to hear Hulk's case for the "maybe pile", if you would. Hulk can beat many of the characters in your list, and even has some OK-ish top-tier matchups. Look at my list again and be sure. Who does Hulk beat on that list? Megaman, Commando, Dhalsim, Iron Men, Omega Red, BH and Venom keep him out all day long; Juggernaut just abuses the lag on all of Hulk's moves; Cammy, Wolverines, Ken, Rogue and Marrow outrush Hulk; Guile, Charlie, BB Hood and Psylocke are going to keep too much shit on the screen for Hulk to be able to do much. Hulk's size is a huge factor; he definitely cannot turtle like he did in MvC1, and he needs meter to bail him out of the recovery of his good move (Gamma Charge). He does have his good matches (surprise, surprise - Doom is one of them), but his bad matches are just ugly. Posted by FluffyXXL on 02:21:2002 03:56 AM: I think that you guys have way too many characters in the 2nd tier. It's probably due to confounding definitions of what makes a character 2nd tier. No one has really come up with a concrete definition of what makes a character 2nd tier. Some people will say that only characters that are close to top tier should be considered. Other people think that any character that has an effective gameplan should be 2nd tier. I personally think it is along the lines of an ability to compete in at least 2 top tier matches and also be competitive with other characters in that category. By compete, I mean should be able to either win or tie in the match-ups. Also would include any character that just totally dominates nearly all lower tier characters. I think this definition is a lot like what is top tier, but has to include characters above and below. I don't think you can just say any character that has an effective gameplan that won't work against top tier should be considered 2nd tier. You have to be able to compete some top tier as well as other characters that are considered 2nd tier and also beat most (if not all) characters below that. It would be a pretty big effort to consider all of those possible match-ups and decide, but I think that is what these forums are for. Anybody else want to get in on this? Posted by lilsdsk8er on 02:21:2002 05:01 AM: This is what i think the 2 tiers are... Top tier(not in any spacific order): Sentinel Storm Cable Blackheart Cyclops Magneto Strider+Doom 2nd Tier: Ironman Spiral Commando Cammy Commando Dahlsim Posted by Iceman on 02:21:2002 05:04 AM: I have an idea for what would make a concrete second tier. Along the lines of what Fluffy said, if the top tier were removed (all 8/9 of them) who would be the new top tier? Then edit that list because Storm, Sentinel, Cable and friends are around. As for the original point of this topic, I'd like some help with the basics of Marrow, Guile/Charlie and Dhalsim. Marrow has been mentioned somewhat. Already. If there's anything more I should know to start some ghetto Marrow feel free to add it in. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 02:21:2002 05:18 AM: I'll ask a question about Megaman. I understand the whole trapping thing (usually with Sent-Y). But, how does he do damage? I mean, the trap does a little bit of nothing in terms of chip damage. And he's not exactly magneto when it comes to landing c.lk. All I can figure is to put him with someone with a good counter->super. Is there anyway to do damage with him on point consistently? And about what makes a char 2nd tier: Anyone who wins more than loses, doesn't lose "for free" to the whole top tier, and has an assist that's at least usable, and DHCs that can conceivably work. That's my definition. Do you want to count characters that are only usable with a specific assist? Like the way Strider isn't so top tier without a chipping assist? -DFA Posted by Juggrknott on 02:21:2002 05:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Look at my list again and be sure. Who does Hulk beat on that list? Megaman, Commando, Dhalsim, Iron Men, Omega Red, BH and Venom keep him out all day long; Juggernaut just abuses the lag on all of Hulk's moves; Cammy, Wolverines, Ken, Rogue and Marrow outrush Hulk; Guile, Charlie, BB Hood and Psylocke are going to keep too much shit on the screen for Hulk to be able to do much. Hulk's size is a huge factor; he definitely cannot turtle like he did in MvC1, and he needs meter to bail him out of the recovery of his good move (Gamma Charge). He does have his good matches (surprise, surprise - Doom is one of them), but his bad matches are just ugly. Thanks for the response. Now, my rebuttal... I'll give you most of the "keep him out all day long" list, but if they screw up just once or twice, Hulk can capitalize. Maybe not to the level of Magneto, but not too shabby, and certainly better than "maybe pile". Nothing inside half a screen is really safe vs. Hulk, & I fear the infinite more from Iron Men than their keepaway, to be honest. If it isn't a true blue trap, Hulk has a chance, and that's all he needs. No doubt it's hard work, though. Especially Venom, Megaman, BH & Dhalsim. Juggernaut gets waited out. Play it safe, take your airthrows, don't let him headcrush you doing something stupid. Lag-wise, he can't afford to do much more than a jab at Hulk, either. Match could go either way. Characters listed who "outrush" Hulk just need some good pushblocks. They live and die on trying to carve through the super armor in this matchup, and that means they'll be jumping & dashing in swinging a lot. Great. That means somebody's going to eat a Gamma Charge or glitched Jugg-b once or twice, or get launched, and with that low stamina that's all that will be needed. Characters who get by trying to "keep too much shit on the screen" in your final list get dash-hopped over to & launched for their troubles. Poor-man's keep away won't cut it, especially the ground-based variety. Next. True, Hulk will need some meter-burning bailouts sometimes on blocked Gamma Charges... got me there. Part of the deal, I guess. Hulk punishes assists about as well as any lower-tier in the game on point, and you'll probably kill an opponent's assist at some point with a Hulk-based team super (Hulk-b/Commando-b team super is easily one of the best team supers in the game that doesn't involve Juggernaut). When you factor all that in, Hulk starts to pull his weight (pardon the pun) much better on a team that compliments his strengths. As you say, though, his bad matchups aren't pretty at all. -Jugg Posted by Pryde on 02:21:2002 07:46 AM: Death From Above: Mega Man kills Magneto and of course you know about his trap already. He gives Storm alot of trouble too. His fierces are very affective against dash ins so he gives people with air dashes trouble. His j.fierce takes off 20 damage on a normal character, so that means 7 j.fierces and you're practically dead. His height also makes it harder to pull off combos and he can get out of traps pretty good. 1 button projectile, what more can I say? Ice Man: Marrow, I've already mentioned so I don't know if I can help you out there, but I reccomend throwing alot of fierces and throwing random bonerangs. Guile/Charlie, I really don't even use them, but I know their air throw priority is pretty damn good. Guile J.RH is too good and if you can master with Charlie, tiger knee crescent kick. Dhalsim, I think I have a pretty decent Sim out there. I play total rush down with him and I team him up with projectiles assist, preferably Spiral-A, Storm-A, Sentinel-G. His range makes him dangerous and he fights well against characters who dashes in. He's a great batter character and has a great air dash. He runaway by teleporting over and over and while he's running, he can assists out and there's nothing you can do unless you have certain characters. Fluffy: It's argumentable who should be in 2nd tier, but the characters I listed, I feel they are worthy to compete up there. lilsdsk8er: er...Spiral is not 2nd tier. Posted by Dasrik on 02:21:2002 11:27 AM: Okay, given Fluffy's explanation of what 2nd tier is, I'll try to explain why I feel most of the people I listed belong there: * Blackheart - undebated * Iron Man - undebated * Iceman - undebated * Dhalsim - has rushdown ability as good as Magneto/Storm, albeit more difficult to effectively do. Also has superior runaway to Storm. Let's not forget those stretchy limbs. * Omega Red - Pretty much rips up everyone not top tier, and has some bloody fights in the top tier as well. * Cammy - undebated (although worth of her assist is still debated) * Guile - cheap-ass launcher, good j.rh, air flash kick has unparalled priority, Sonic Boom, beats Sentinel and gives most of the rest of the top tier an even fight as well. * War Machine - poor man's IM, but his War Destroyer is faster than it was in MvC1 so you can't really throw shit from the air at him. I'd say he has an easier time on Sentinel than Iron Man does. * Megaman - A! A! A! A! A! * Captain Commando - top tier assist. BH counter character, good rushdown ability, Jennety is good on air games and helps vs. Storm (no hail storming helpers), near unbeatable priority on fierces * Juggernaut (glitched) - kills people. * Psylocke - Top tier assist. Arguably can hold a lead better than any other character. * Jin - Top tier assist, damaging comboes, great priority, good mobility with low drill, Blodia Punch can punish assist and point. Does well on Doom. * Silver Samurai - kills assists, good priority, does well on Sentinel and Doom. * Wolverines - kings of ground rushdown, drill claw provides mobility, calling assists after stomp kicks, gives anyone without AAA headaches. Does well on Cable and Doom. * BB Hood - knockdown projectile, hellafied damaging combos, good priority on jump-ins, cant be jumped in on. REALLY good with a projectile assist, but I'm thinking of moving her in the MAYBE pile for now given the qualifications. * Tron - top tier assist, annoying rushdown ability. personally, given Fluffy's qualifications for 2nd tier, I don't know if she qualifies. * Marrow - punishes assists for free, Bonerang stops a lot of projectile assists cold, fast rushdown. Does really well on Spiral and Doom, maybe Cable too. * Rogue - good rushdown esp. with speedup, good priority on moves. Can win by persistence. * Ken - top tier assist, hurricane kick, flinch DP. Does well on Doom, and Viscant insists he does well on Sentinel too (I don't see it, LOL) * Venom - Venom Fang is stupid. Does well on Magneto (j.rh beats all of his triangle jump shit.) * Charlie - Poor man's Guile. More damaging combos, but loses air dominance. The more I think about it, he probably shouldn't be 2nd tier... Juggrknott: Guile/Charlie/Psylocke's launchers beat everything Hulk has in the air, including j.rh. And Hulk's throw isn't what it used to be, so he can't really go swatting at people who rush in on him. As for Juggernaut, it's a matter of perspective. Any mistake Hulk makes means at least 75% of his strength gone at any time. Any mistake Juggernaut makes means he'll probably lose 60% or so IF Hulk is even able to do Gamma Charge. I think Doom is one of Hulk's FEW good fights, and that's not enough for him to be 2nd tier. Iceman: Guile's good moves are: jump roundhouse (long range and priority beats down some moves before they start - Mags' j.rh and BH's j.fierce come to mind); crouch fierce (cheap-ass launcher that beats everything); air flash kick (you can't go after Guile while he's jumping); jab sonic boom (end ground chains with jab sonic boom; piece of shit stays on the screen forever). A lot of times, Guile can just superjump and throw fierces and air flash kicks and the opponent can't do anything but wait for him to land. Sonic Hurricane is a good super for punishing assists especially if you have a good DHC. Guile is played by just keeping at least a sonic boom on the screen at all times and not letting the opponent attack much. If he has a projectile assist, he can keep too much shit on the bottom plane for Magneto or Storm to rush in effectively. He can give Cable a really hard time if he manages to reach him once a toss a Sonic Boom; from there, he can keep pressure on like no one's business. As for Sentinel, Guile doesn't let Sentinel fly, which means Sentinel has to face him on the ground; and Guile is better equipped for THAT battle than Sentinel is. Does poorly on Spiral, Strider. Doom probably beats him, and Blackheart rips him up. (On the note of assists - while Guile's flash kick is probably the best assist overall, his sonic boom can also be used very well, since it's so slow and stays on the screen for a hella long time. That's the concept behind Joe Zaza's Team Scream - B-Guile/A-BB Hood/B-Charlie. Charlie's on Anti-Air for comboable team super and bailout assist.) Charlie is like Guile without the air flash kick and the dominating j.rh. Instead, he gets an even slower jab sonic boom and the air moonsault kick which moves downward. He has a harder time on Sentinel because he can't flash kick at any given time. Still does decently on Cable if he can reach him. Posted by Pryde on 02:21:2002 02:54 PM: Dasrik: Please, I think Cammy's assist is top notch. I'll list reasons here. 1.It does decent damage, on a normal character 20/143 2.Invincibilty through beams and some projectiles. 3.Counter in to KBA is what makes it so valuable. 4.A true counter against Doom on point 5.Goes 90% across the screen. As for Tron Bonne. She's definitely 2nd tier. 1.Most Damaging assist in the game 2.Good throw range 3.Infinite air dash (I bet most of you didn't even know this) 4.Ger drill into Kobun super gives you free chip damage on most characters. 5.Her cross over fierce is to good. 6.If she gets you in the corner, you're pretty much dead. Throw into super is unrollable and is guarunteed 40% - 55% damage. BB Hood: She's not as solid as before, I think she should be in the "Maybe" pile. She's as effective as before. She's really only good for triple team and her throw range is very much under estimated cuz no touches fierce. Psylocke: is too good, most of you guys out there already know what she can do, her wave dashing is ridiculous, too good. She a has good cross not many people know about, but it's risky to use it. Call projectile assist + back RH the press forward. Her most valuable assest is her speed and TRIPLE jump. Keep in mind when she uses triple jump on regular jump mode, she still can call assist out (I bet 90% of you out there don't even know this) that's also an easy cross up. So yes, Psylocke is second tier, regardless of her stamina. Marrow also fights well against BH. Posted by Juggrknott on 02:21:2002 03:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Juggrknott: Guile/Charlie/Psylocke's launchers beat everything Hulk has in the air, including j.rh. True enough. Therefore, for opponents with pain-in-the-a$$ launchers, you go a little heavier on the no-attack jump-ins, and when they whiff you punish with your Gamma Charge (rather than impale yourself on said launcher). When they stop trying to launch, get a quick [call Jugg-b, throw before Jugg gets there] when they hesitate. Hulk 201. The only jump-in you can halfway count on will be when they have commited to a Sonic Boom/Butterfly, and you've hustled over there in time. quote: And Hulk's throw isn't what it used to be, so he can't really go swatting at people who rush in on him. So you let the assist do the work a lot of the time, like most every other character in MvC2 does (being fully prepared to jump behind opposing characters that are dangerous to punish the normal way, of course). quote: As for Juggernaut, it's a matter of perspective. Any mistake Hulk makes means at least 75% of his strength gone at any time. Any mistake Juggernaut makes means he'll probably lose 60% or so IF Hulk is even able to do Gamma Charge. Agreed. No real argument here. But hell, who *doesn't* lose 75% to Jugg for whiffing something? quote: I think Doom is one of Hulk's FEW good fights, and that's not enough for him to be 2nd tier. I think Hulk has more good fights than you give him credit for, but even taking what you say on the face... where is Jin's plethora of "good fights"? Silver Samurai, with his fairly slow & meter-hogging self, makes the cut with chip stars & an assist-punishing super? Rogue makes it "with persistance"? If you're giving "how character X does vs. top-tier" a lot of weight in your estimations, Hulk easily does as well as any off the three I just mentioned above. On the other hand, if you're looking at "low-tier vs. low-tier", Hulk's stock just went up dramatically. Again, if it's not a *real* trap, *real* runaway or top-notch rushdown (Mag), you can't just write Hulk off. Now I'm not saying I can routinely dismantle whole squads with just the Hulk, but I do indeed count on Hulk being involved in taking down 1.5-2 characters in a match. If that's not pulling your weight, I don't know what is. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I enjoyed the discussion. Appreciate it. -Jugg Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:21:2002 04:27 PM: I'd like to try and get Felicia out of that maybe pile, and add some stuff to what was said about Tron. Personally, Felicia should never be without Tron Projectile assist (Much like Strider/Doom [AAA]). Anyway, Felicia has a good rushdown game. Her s.jp has really good range and is damn fast. Also, her Rolling Buckler XX whatever (Neko Punch or Kick) and her Delta Kick allow her to close the ground between herself and the opponent quickly. If you practice doing it quickly, her Rolling Buckler XX Neko Uppercut can be used as anti-air. She builds meter very well with her normal attack pattern, and her fp throw gets you 3/4 of a meter in that one move. Her Litterbox Kick is abusable and punishes assists, as does Hyper Litterbox Kick, with relative safety. Also, the simple combo of 1234+Tron, Please Help Me! does 50% damage to a high-defense character. Two of these to any character and he's dead (even Sentinel). Tron Bonne has some crazy rushdown skills, and a simple but effective air-combo with 124, rk Bonne Strike (note that the sp must be left out as it is a knockdown). Backed with a slow cover assist, she can abuse TKed Bonne Strikes for a free 10-15% chip damage. She has a good keep-away guessing game with Servbot Launchers, s.rk rocks, and Beacon Bombs (plus the aforementioned slow cover assist). She can also use King Kobun as a decent assist punisher. She also has the in-the-corner 12, rk Bonne Strike XX Lunch Rush. Her glitched assist does great damage and punishes assists well. Whew! Hope that clears a few things up. Drop a message if you have any questions or want to point out fallicies. Katta wa! Remy Saotome Posted by FluffyXXL on 02:21:2002 06:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik * Blackheart - undebated * Iron Man - undebated * Iceman - undebated * Dhalsim - has rushdown ability as good as Magneto/Storm, albeit more difficult to effectively do. Also has superior runaway to Storm. Let's not forget those stretchy limbs. * Omega Red - Pretty much rips up everyone not top tier, and has some bloody fights in the top tier as well. * Cammy - undebated (although worth of her assist is still debated) * Guile - cheap-ass launcher, good j.rh, air flash kick has unparalled priority, Sonic Boom, beats Sentinel and gives most of the rest of the top tier an even fight as well. * War Machine - poor man's IM, but his War Destroyer is faster than it was in MvC1 so you can't really throw shit from the air at him. I'd say he has an easier time on Sentinel than Iron Man does. * Megaman - A! A! A! A! A! * Captain Commando - top tier assist. BH counter character, good rushdown ability, Jennety is good on air games and helps vs. Storm (no hail storming helpers), near unbeatable priority on fierces * Juggernaut (glitched) - kills people. * Psylocke - Top tier assist. Arguably can hold a lead better than any other character. * Jin - Top tier assist, damaging comboes, great priority, good mobility with low drill, Blodia Punch can punish assist and point. Does well on Doom. * Silver Samurai - kills assists, good priority, does well on Sentinel and Doom. * Wolverines - kings of ground rushdown, drill claw provides mobility, calling assists after stomp kicks, gives anyone without AAA headaches. Does well on Cable and Doom. * BB Hood - knockdown projectile, hellafied damaging combos, good priority on jump-ins, cant be jumped in on. REALLY good with a projectile assist, but I'm thinking of moving her in the MAYBE pile for now given the qualifications. * Tron - top tier assist, annoying rushdown ability. personally, given Fluffy's qualifications for 2nd tier, I don't know if she qualifies. * Marrow - punishes assists for free, Bonerang stops a lot of projectile assists cold, fast rushdown. Does really well on Spiral and Doom, maybe Cable too. * Rogue - good rushdown esp. with speedup, good priority on moves. Can win by persistence. * Ken - top tier assist, hurricane kick, flinch DP. Does well on Doom, and Viscant insists he does well on Sentinel too (I don't see it, LOL) * Venom - Venom Fang is stupid. Does well on Magneto (j.rh beats all of his triangle jump shit.) * Charlie - Poor man's Guile. More damaging combos, but loses air dominance. The more I think about it, he probably shouldn't be 2nd tier... This is what i've been able to gather so far... Yes Dhalsim Iron Man Blackheart Iceman Cammy War Machine Megaman Maybe Gambit Omega Red Guile Juggernaut Marrow Silver Samuri Wolverine Charlie Venom Psylocke No Tron Ken BBHood Jin Captain Commando Rogue Hulk Yes is 2nd tier. Maybe's should be judged against the established characters in the 2nd tier and be able to compete, should win some top tier match, and should win most lower tier matches as well. No's just can't compete with top or 2nd tier. Why I have Maybe category: In all honesty, I'm not familiar with every single match-up in the game. I'm pretty sure everyone else out there falls into this category. I think we should start to discuss the Maybe category in-depth and without bias. Also, the No's are there because I know they don't competing with the top or 2nd tier. If I've made a grave mistake, please inform me as to why (by citing match-ups) cuz I'm ready and willing to argue those ones. Damn, this would be a good thread to have Viscant post on. Where has that Puce lovin' fool been? Posted by Pryde on 02:21:2002 06:49 PM: Hm..... Fluffy: I believe you underestimate Tron. She's the only person in the game with infinite air dashing and her cross overs are good. Her launch is not too shabby and her throws are too good. I still believe BH is top tier. Psylocke is definitly up in 2nd tier. I listed the reasons why she should be there. I'll post more later on what I think, cuz I got a football game to play. Posted by Juggrknott on 02:21:2002 08:03 PM: Agreed, Fluffy. I'll try to participate with less bias. I have to concede that whatever the Hulk does get will be hard-earned. Most think it's too much trouble to be worth it (obviously). Add in the fact that good Hulk sightings are few & far between, and his cool reception doesn't surprise me. Anyway, I think Commando should come off of your "No" list. People don't like fighting with him on point, but at least you can't do wholesale runaway on him. Whoever said last man standing was supposed to be fun/a piece of cake anyways? I would reconsider Tron as well. She holds her own on point, has fairly good stamina & assist damage that's hard to turn your back on. You could do worse for a 2nd tier candidate... much worse. I'm still not feeling some of they "maybes", like Charlie & Gambit. I guess it's just a situation where many characters have *something* to offer, but you have to cut this thing off somewhere. Very subjective to say where & why. Things get really blurry at the lower end of 2nd tier. As far as the "Yes" list, I agree. I feel like Iceman will get worked a lot of times, but I guess that's just a personal thing. I don't have a real defense for that stance, just a gut feeling. -Jugg Posted by MadHatter on 02:21:2002 08:36 PM: Omega Red is atleast top second tier. the man will kill you for free. he's good against lots of things. Spiral, Strider and Magneto have trouble with the guy. 3 of the 7 or so top tier is alot, especially since spiral and strider are only are good with 1 or 2 assists. the other top tier have the advantage on him, but not a very big advantage. sent/bh trap is the only thing that really dominates him and usually it doesnt matter because he is mostly there to build super meter anyway. he is a meter building god. so the is no mother fucking "MAYBE" in ORs placement in second tier. AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!! <---Vash laugh Posted by TS on 02:21:2002 09:10 PM: People like Commando and Psylocke and the rest deserve to be second tier because they win tournaments. Go play Mag/Storm/Roll or BH/Sent/Jill and tell me I'm wrong. Yes, all of th 2nd tier characters who are there mostly for assist value are probably really 3rd tier characters...but considering that their assists change the game entirely, and that someone like Commando probably places in tournaments more consistently than any of the top tiers makes it irrelevant. That said, people like them are very solid as characters, and shouldn't be dropped from top tiers because they don't like to fight Cable when he has assists, or whatever retarded reason. Random things that I need to start getting on my soapbox about: 1. In MvC2, and a lot of fighting games, HELLA characters are good. Just because a character isn't top ~10 out of 56, doesn't mean you shouldn't play them (or more importantly, that they are unplayable). 2. 2nd tier is not "low tier." Oh my God. 3rd tier is, at worst, middle tier, and if I hear someone call Omega Red or Captain Commando or Psyloke a "low tier character" I will shoot them in the genitals with a cannon ball. Wrapped in barbed wire. Thanks. Just venting. Posted by Monkey on 02:21:2002 09:58 PM: Pryde! Wasup nigga! Long time no see. -monkey Posted by magnus on 02:21:2002 10:08 PM: 2nd Tier: Ironman Spiral Commando Cammy Commando Dahlsim [/QUOTE] how is spiral 2nd tier? she is one of the most advanced chars. in the game. and how the hell can commando be 2nd tier twice, is this the console list of top tiers? Posted by Dasrik on 02:21:2002 10:29 PM: Good points, Fluffy. I'll argue for Guile first. Joe Zaza (a.k.a. low tier whore) insists that Guile is in fact top tier. I'm not convinced yet, but given his general track success with Guile convinces me that he should be second tier. I'll review his top tier fights (as I've seen them fought). Please don't argue that "Guile WILL get hit by AHVB/HSF/hail storm/etc." There's a little thing called blocking that some people have forgotten to use Guile vs. Cable/no-AAA - Guile owns Cable without an Anti-Air Assist (ie. Doom or Sentinel). Getting in is not a problem. Once Guile is in close enough range (I'm talking a little bit closer than midscreen), J.RH will stuff everything Cable can jump back with. Once Guile gets in the inside range, he ends his ground chains with sonic boom. The sonic boom will stuff Doom if he comes out, and it'll hold Sentinel in place long enough for Guile to jump in again without worries. Also, the sonic boom, if thrown from the proper distance, stuffs AHVB, so Cable can't just block and AHVB. This range is bigger than you think, because projectiles move forward during the screen freeze frame. Guile vs. Cable/AAA - A little bit more difficult than Cable without AAA, but it's still winnable if Guile has any projectile assist. If he can get in on the inside (remember his j.rh is good for Cable), he can call projectile assist and end ground chain with sonic boom. An AAA that Cable calls will take damage from one of the projectiles, and Cable still has to worry about the other one. Guile vs. Sentinel - Guile owns this fight pretty hard. Because of his j.RH and air flash kick, Sentinel has no business flying on Guile and expecting to be able to attack him. He just won't be able to do it for more than a few seconds. So, Sentinel has to fight Guile on the ground, and Guile unquestionably owns this fight. J.RH keeps Sentinel from effectively fly-cancelling his normals if Guile gets close, sonic boom is a pain in the ass that slows him down, and his launcher and airthrow mean Sentinel doesn't have much business jumping. The MOST problematic fight here is Sentinel with Blackheart assist, and as long as you keep projectiles on the screen, BH gets stuffed more often than not. Guile vs. Storm - Not a great fight for Guile, but he has cards to play, too. J.RH won't beat her jump fierce but it tends to stuff triangle jump attempts. As long as Guile keeps throwing booms and projectile helpers, Storm will have a hard time rushing in. Her S.RH WON'T beat a fireball. Also, keeping two projectiles on the screen makes it difficult for Storm to typhoon xx hail storm helpers. If a Sonic Boom is on screen when she does it, it will hit her legs. Storm CAN runaway on Guile, but she has to think twice about where she goes because of the air flash kick. Guile vs. Magneto/Psylocke - As random as all Magneto fights are, Guile can still do something. Like with Storm, Magneto will have a hard time rushing in with projectiles on screen, and Guile's J.RH is better on triangle jumps than it is on Storm's. His launcher also beats all of Magneto's attacks. Guile has to be really careful about jumping though, because of Psylocke. On the whole, this isn't Guile's fight - although theoretically he should run a little bit better than even, we all know how Magneto is. Guile vs. Spiral/AAA - This fight can go either way depending on who gets the momentum. Guile's definitely got tools to get the momentum, though. Long range on his J.RH and the air flash kick forces Spiral to either get above him to start swords, or to make him block an AAA. If Guile manages to get his offense going, Spiral's going to have a hard time ever getting swords. Once she does, it's more difficult for Guile to do anything about it, but his extended air hang time DOES help. Guile vs. Spiral/Sentinel - It's easier for Guile to keep the momentum in this match, but if Spiral gets the trap going, it's going to be hellaciously hard for Guile to get the upper hand. (to be continued) Posted by Dasrik on 02:21:2002 10:49 PM: Guile vs. Doom/not-Storm or BH - Guile has this fight wrapped up, pretty much. Doom doesn't have a real keepaway game on Guile, because he has no fullscreen game on the ground. Jump fierce WILL get hit by j.RH once Guile gets close, and even if Doom carries Sentinel it's a matter of Guile getting above Doom briefly enough to get in. A sonic boom from closer to midscreen will also hit Doom out of jump fierce. As for Doom's rush-in game, only nazikick beats Guile's launcher, and it's difficult to follow that up with something that doesn't kill Doom once Guile gets up. Oh yeah - Doom has NO business throwing photons on Guile. If the air flash kick doesn't stuff them before they come out, Guile can punish with his air super easily. Doom doesn't like this fight. Not at all. Guile vs. Doom/Storm - Runs the same way as Doom without Storm until, of course, Doom gets two meters. Then Guile has to play it more carefully, try to keep Doom on the ground, and not fall for "random" photon array xx hail storm. Guile vs. Doom/BH - Doom's best chance on Guile is with Blackheart assist. It's a bit easier if Guile gets in close - if he can do that, he can throw a sonic boom that will stuff Blackheart. Doom still has the random photon array option IF Guile is below him. If Doom messes that up, Blackheart will eat an air super. Guile vs. Strider/Doom - Snap out Strider! Seriously, Guile does just as bad as everyone else in theory. He can hang in the air and avoid orbs somewhat, but throwing projectiles is ineffective because Strider can do way better. Best advice - keep the pressure on by trying to get on the inside. Once you hit him, make it something damaging and kill him. Guile vs. Cyclops - Cyclops should win this fight, simply because he can fill the screen with shit easier than Guile and he can trump Guile in the air somewhat. His j.dn+RH should beat Guile's launcher, too. What can Guile do? Evade the optic bullets and try to get Cyclops to block something. Everything gets a bit easier once Guile manages to get his booms out there. Guile vs. Blackheart/AAA - This is an awful fight for Guile. He can't superjump and sonic booms usually get aborted by fierce demons. Guile's J.RH does help him once he gets inside if Blackheart gets lazy and just jumpback fierces, but BH can just as easily block and get back into fullscreen. Guile's favorite assists Any non-beam projectile assist will help Guile. He doesn't really need an anti-air assist that much - his c.fierce beats a lot of shit, and if he can fill the screen with stuff, the opponent will be hard pressed to mount an offense - he'll be too busy blocking. With that said, here are his favorites: Y-Sentinel - Anyone that loves projectile assists loves Sentinel. I don't think I need to explain myself much more A-Spiral - Spiral's swords chip in a hurry, so they serve very well to keep pressure going. A-BB Hood - The projectile knocks down giving Guile a free combo, and lots of people forget about it. PLUS, it gives Guile the option of punishing assists with a team super which does a lot of damage (especially if you choose projectile type Guile). B-Doom - Guile has an easy time punishing people who try to jump in and hit out Doom; it's a good baiting tool. There...that's the chapter on Guile. Keep in mind that I'm reporting things I've seen secondhand; but I know Guile's fights pretty well, especially against Doom and Blackheart, since those are the characters I use, and I play Joe Zaza a helluva lot. Maybe if he posts, he'll give you the War and Peace version of how to use Guile. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:22:2002 12:17 AM: No doubts on Top Tiers. But second tier is just too big... Definate 2nd tiers are Omega Red Sim Iron Man War Machine Ice Man Everyone else is pretty much iffy. Silver Samuri- loses to traps and such good assist killer though Mega Man- Nice trap, but he's a poor man's Spiral. CapCom- Not 2nd tier but DAMN his J.FP and air throw! Rogue- Good at rush down, damn her power stealing ability. Cammy- Good, has a few good top tier matches. (Damn good against Doom, and good against other 2nd tier charaters) I can't say much about the rest of the list, its either that I haven't seen a person good enough with them, or I am not convinced that they are 2nd tier. Darsk- Interesting Guile strats! Posted by Viscant on 02:22:2002 03:19 AM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL Damn, this would be a good thread to have Viscant post on. Where has that Puce lovin' fool been? Top tier: Puce: No counters. If there is a god, there will be a video of her on Clockw0rk.com someday so the world can know the power. Jamie Sale: Kind of a flavor of the month and everyone tries to use her. She'll die out in time, but still loses to Puce for free. Winnie Cooper: Original top tier. Still good, her pattern of smile sheepishly then light up my heart still works. No arguments? OK then... Seriously though, I'm starting to see MvC2 as kind of a top tier and then everyone else and then Hayato/Roll type thing. You can play some really really really stupid teams in this game and still win. Teams like Gambit/Cyclops/Morrigan that make little sense can still win. I kinda agree with how Shady ranked this game, on teams rather than on individual characters. As I see it, there's like...top 8 characters (Storm, Sentinel, Strider, Spiral, Doom, Cable, Magneto, Cyclops) as pretty much above everyone else. Then there are the 25 or so that can still compete. This being all the good assists (Tron, Cammy, Psylocke, Ken) also including the necessary counter characters to the top teams (Felicia, Guile, Charlie), and also the legitimate "almost there" characters (Ruby, Iron Man/War Machine, Megaman, Dhalsim, Samurai, Colossus). There's a lot of variety in MvC2...and if there's one thing I've learned from playing Gambit/Cyclops/Morrigan almost exclusively the past couple months that it's still a Marvel game. Combo is the key. All you need is 1 top tier character and have the other two fit nicely into combos or do something else cool and you can compete. Ranking who comes first between Tron and Ken is kind of pointless though...too much variety in the game to nail something down beyond the top few. Minority characters don't really deserve individual rankings, IMO. Tier system works well. These characters all lump in nicely at having specific purposes. That's about as far into that as I'll go. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by DoomsdayKen on 02:22:2002 04:18 AM: I have to agree with Viscant here. Past the top notch characters, it really is anybody's game with the proper team mechanics. I mean I for example have been using Magneto/Hulk/Gief for the past couple weeks and faired pretty well. As for the Hulk, I definitely say that he should be 2nd tier if such a thing exists. He's very deadly in the right hands. He has a very nasty combo against the wall that takes 90% if not teched and can take out an assist with the quickness if he is paired with the right characters for a THC. His air throw is very underrated as it can lead to buttloads of damage. His dash assist is actually very underrated as well. It actually beats Doom when called at the same time. So I think that he pulls his weight pretty well. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 02:22:2002 05:08 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Death From Above: Mega Man kills Magneto and of course you know about his trap already. He gives Storm alot of trouble too. His fierces are very affective against dash ins so he gives people with air dashes trouble. His j.fierce takes off 20 damage on a normal character, so that means 7 j.fierces and you're practically dead. His height also makes it harder to pull off combos and he can get out of traps pretty good. 1 button projectile, what more can I say? Well, that's retarded. I knew this, but I was here thinking he had some way of really forcing damage. And it turns out he just has to rely on the opponent running into stupid shit. Thx, -DFA Posted by fLoE on 02:22:2002 05:26 AM: bah.. dont listen to viscant.. hes all shity... he needs to go lose to me in kof some more Posted by fLoE on 02:22:2002 05:31 AM: viscant on aim - Viscant1234 [11:13 PM]: you need to edit your post to say that puce is indeed not top tier and that shes this ugly bitch that doesnt even deserve to have a fucked up name like puce, actually she DOES Posted by Viscant on 02:22:2002 05:33 AM: floe on aim: Dakong1234: ure all shitty Dakong1234: ricky is not prettier than me Dakong1234: why won't you touch me again like fluffy did Dakong1234: r u there? Dakong1234: stop ignoring me Dakong1234: fuck u Dakong1234: fine Dakong1234: check the post again Dakong1234: look what i said about puce Viscant: i hate you Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 02:22:2002 05:35 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant Top tier: Puce: No counters. If there is a god, there will be a video of her on Clockw0rk.com someday so the world can know the power. Jamie Sale: Kind of a flavor of the month and everyone tries to use her. She'll die out in time, but still loses to Puce for free. Winnie Cooper: Original top tier. Still good, her pattern of smile sheepishly then light up my heart still works. No arguments? OK then... Seriously though, I'm starting to see MvC2 as kind of a top tier and then everyone else and then Hayato/Roll type thing. You can play some really really really stupid teams in this game and still win. Teams like Gambit/Cyclops/Morrigan that make little sense can still win. I kinda agree with how Shady ranked this game, on teams rather than on individual characters. As I see it, there's like...top 8 characters (Storm, Sentinel, Strider, Spiral, Doom, Cable, Magneto, Cyclops) as pretty much above everyone else. Then there are the 25 or so that can still compete. This being all the good assists (Tron, Cammy, Psylocke, Ken) also including the necessary counter characters to the top teams (Felicia, Guile, Charlie), and also the legitimate "almost there" characters (Ruby, Iron Man/War Machine, Megaman, Dhalsim, Samurai, Colossus). There's a lot of variety in MvC2...and if there's one thing I've learned from playing Gambit/Cyclops/Morrigan almost exclusively the past couple months that it's still a Marvel game. Combo is the key. All you need is 1 top tier character and have the other two fit nicely into combos or do something else cool and you can compete. Ranking who comes first between Tron and Ken is kind of pointless though...too much variety in the game to nail something down beyond the top few. Minority characters don't really deserve individual rankings, IMO. Tier system works well. These characters all lump in nicely at having specific purposes. That's about as far into that as I'll go. --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com you just cant leave hayato alone now can ya??!!!! Posted by fLoE on 02:22:2002 05:37 AM: viscant needs to stop talking to me on aim Viscant[11:20 PM]: hayato needs to be nekkid in mvc3 ooooooooooo ricky slurp slurp Posted by F£É§h~Ñ~BoÑè on 02:22:2002 05:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by fLoE viscant needs to stop talking to me on aim Viscant[11:20 PM]: hayato needs to be nekkid in mvc3 ooooooooooo ricky slurp slurp Posted by Pryde on 02:22:2002 06:16 AM: ............ Floe......Viscant, you both go get a room with each other and leave this thread alone. Posted by ShadyK on 02:22:2002 06:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant Top tier: Puce: No counters. If there is a god, there will be a video of her on Clockw0rk.com someday so the world can know the power. Jamie Sale: Kind of a flavor of the month and everyone tries to use her. She'll die out in time, but still loses to Puce for free. Winnie Cooper: Original top tier. Still good, her pattern of smile sheepishly then light up my heart still works. Puce is nice. Posted by Dasrik on 02:22:2002 09:03 AM: *walks in with a book all about Captain Commando and sees the funny stuff going on* I... think I'll come back later. *quietly walks out* Posted by sKiLLmAtiC on 02:22:2002 09:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by ShadyK Puce's counter is a bag over her head. haha damn that was fucked up. ey viscant, who is puce neways. i keep hearing u talk bout her and shit. from tha pic on clockwork, i would hav to agree wit shady. damn that shit was too funny. Posted by Juggrknott on 02:22:2002 01:31 PM: [attempting to get the thread back on track....] I thought about what Viscant had to say, and it makes sense. It may seem rather non-commital (kind of like Zeus saying "Don't ask *me* who deserves the golden apple..."), but it's true that if you're willing to focus your team construction around a feasible gameplan, a lot of things could conceivably work. As Fluffy pointed out earlier, there are way too many matchups and considerations to unequivocally say "Character X will never cut it in a million years" (with fairly obvious exceptions). The best you can do is look at obvious issues with things like mobility, stamina, etc. and take it from there, always keeping in mind that maybe you haven't seen everything there is to see about a given character. Hopefully this won't totally kill the discussion.... [waits patiently for Dasrik's Commando book...] -Jugg Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:22:2002 04:54 PM: Yeah, I may play Felicia/Tron/Ruby as a shit around team in the arcade, but if I need to be serious, I have pulled out Felicia/Tron/Sent. With Sentinel on Gamma assist, you've got all your bases covered. Tron helps out Felicia on point, Sent helps out Tron on point, and Felicia builds meter for Sent, who then punishes with flight+Tron. This is a very competitive team, and I've stuffed a lot of really good local players (Except that damn Storm Her runaway owns this team) using their best teams. You may wonder about the lack of anti-air. This team doesn't need it. Sent prevents triangle jumps, and you can run away from other jump-ins. Also, Juggy/Servs/Doom. With Servbots on Balance assist, you just active Juggy glitch and get the Servbots in. Servs are nearly a safe tag-in because they are too tiny to combo and most TKed super will go over their head. Then you play keep-away chipping with Doom rocks, running Servbots, and Servocopters. Build up the meter and then use Doom to force the opponent to block a Variable Rush. If they take the hit instead (i.e. you mistimed or something like that), DHC to Headcrush and then get the Juggy glitch->Servs again. Still, runaway Storm owns this team hardcore, but it holds its own against most anyone else. Anyway, just more examples of how team dynamics can make lesser characters better. Katta wa! Remy Saotome Posted by Pryde on 02:22:2002 07:10 PM: Felicia......I don't have much comments on her cuz I don't really use her. She seems to be fun, to mess around with and you can get some cross overs by calling projectile assist and doing her uppercut maneuver. So that's not too shabby, but to bad she doesn't really do much damage. Her Sand super seems quite effective and is pretty much as fast as AHVB, plus if you're close enough, one flinch and you're hit. AHVB: Well...the purpose of Megaman is to pretty much lock down and you can barely chip, he's a great battery at least, hey at least he's in the game to beat some characters others can't. FluffyXXL: I'm a Gambit player and I used to think Gambit should be 2nd tier, but I realize that I don't think he is any more. He has some good cross overs, his j.fierce has great priority and his launch is pretty damn good too. One of the only other characters who can jump in with both fierce and RH. His jab cajun strike is pretty decent, but they took out his no recovery, which makes it a little risky to use. Tron, like I said is very resourceful, she has a good trap with Sentinel, which you've seen already, good chip damage, good throw range, good cross over, yes I know I'm repeating myself. Let's see some of her match ups. Tron vs Storm: Let's be realistic here, in the matches I played against Trons and vice versa, Tron doesn't do that bad, unless Storm just runsaway. She has her air drill which makes her resourcful to travel across the screen, the match should go to Storm, but Tron IMO would give her some fight. Tron vs Magneto: Same thing as Storm, but Magneto would have come in close. Tron's launch is pretty effective against Magneto, but Magneto's speed would be the undoing of Tron, but if it came down to it, I think it would be who would out throw who for the damage. Tron vs Sentinel: In my opinion, Tron pretty much kills Sentinel. Her J.Fierce out prioritizes all of Sentinel's move. Plus Tron would throw Sentinel like a rag doll, literally. Tron vs Doom: Tron dies pretty bad against Doom. Why, Jump Fierce and photons, nuff said. Tron vs Cable: Hm..... this looks easy and I'll give this to Cable, cuz Cable could keep away Tron all day with his J.Fierces and viper beams. His grenades would be very effective against Tron. Tron vs Cyclops: I really haven't seen much of this match, but theoritcally, I believe Cyclops would win, cuz his S.RH would out prioritize Tron's j.fierce and Cyke can chip Tron to death with M.O.B. Tron vs Spiral: Swords will be the undoing of Tron. Tron vs BH: I think Tron would win this match, cuz Tron would be able to chip BH and not have to worry about anything, plus her launcher is very effective on him. I'll post more later on her. Posted by TS on 02:22:2002 08:06 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Well, that's retarded. I knew this, but I was here thinking he had some way of really forcing damage. And it turns out he just has to rely on the opponent running into stupid shit. Thx, -DFA Imagine if one of Spiral's swords did as much damage as Sentinel's Fierce, or something ridiculous like that. That's Megaman. Other than the lockdown, he has simple stuff (good launcher, air combo into DHC, easy GB if you want it), and he's a great battery. Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:22:2002 08:30 PM: I agree about Gambit not being second tier. He has a nice B&B and can jump-in and cross-up well, plus a for-free DHC in with Cajun Explosion, but he dies to a lot of things (Doom rocks shut him down cold). Just out of curiousity, what's your basic Gambit combo, Pryde? I use 1234, fp+sk Cajun Slash XX Royal Flush. Viscant's Five-Card Stud is nice, too, but very hard too pull off, especially considering that my Gambit team is MM/Gambit/Jin. Nothing good to set it up with. Oh, another thing that MM has going for him is his chipping supers. If you have the chance to Beat Plane or Rush Drill (Very rare, I know), they both chip well and then you can DHC to a safe super. I'd like to hear the case for Marrow. A lot of people said that she's up there, and I just don't see it (I use her a little with Rogue and Psylocke). Katta wa! Remy Saotome Posted by Pryde on 02:22:2002 10:13 PM: Remy Saotome: I really don't use Gambit as a combo character unless I get a launcher off. He's main in the battle for me as a chipping character and a battery character, but if I do a combo, it's s.lk, s.rh, jab.cajun strike. The strategy for Gambit is my little mix up with him and Doom, which is Call Doom and do kick cajun strike (The wall version), over and over and then throw in a few sweeps here and there, cuz they have to block the cajun strike high. This builds up alot of meter and once in awhile, I drop Doom and do Cajun Strike, for some chip damage. Jin is definitly not second tier, that was for Dasrik. Let's looks at Psylocke's battles, some of you think her assist is her only assets. Psylocke vs Doom: Speed is a crucial factor in this match and Psylocke beats Doom hands down for free. Psylocke vs Cable: Same thing in this match, Psylocke would be just to quick in this match and her launcher is hella good for Cable's j.RH, I say this match goes to Psylocke. Psylocke vs Storm:It's possible for Psylocke her to get the upperhand in this match, her fireball goes through Storm's typhoons (correct me if I'm wrong and hail storms, but she can teleport out of harms ways from hailstorm, but she would need to predict it a second ahead. This match would go to Storm, but Psylocke would definitley put up a battle. Psylocke vs Magneto: I think this match would be a little bit more difficult for Psylocke, her speed would be crucial in this match also, she can go for dashins with c.lk and launch and if she misses she can follow it up with her fireball or she can dash in and do s.fierces, which is hella quick and sometimes catches most Magnetos off guard if they are trying to flinch or triangle jump. Psylocke vs Sentinel: If she could actually pull off an infinite on Sentinel, I'd say this match would go to Psylocke, but it's pretty hard to do, her j.fierce is very effective against Sentinel. It's really hard to say which way this match would go, cuz Stamina is very crucial in this match. Sentinel Flight is as fast as Psylocke on the ground, I would say this match could go either way. Psylocke vs BH: Speed is a factor in this match, her launcher is pretty good against BH and her s.fierce is quite effective, this match goes to Psylocke. Psylocke vs Cyclops: Hm.... what do you guys think? Cyclops would just do J.RH all day just to win and MOB? Hm.... I'd say this match goes to Cyclops. Is it me does these match ups sounds like a pokemon battle? Posted by eKiN on 02:22:2002 10:44 PM: I don't know man if I agree with your Psylocke matches, the fact is she takes shitty damage and does shitty damage. At least against Blackheart, I think he wins that match for fun. Posted by Dasrik on 02:22:2002 11:22 PM: Pryde: I don't really understand Tron that well, so while I disagree with your Tron match-ups, I realize I'm probably missing something. (Although Tron beating Sentinel in any relevant matchup is certainly, um, questionable...) But as far as Psylocke goes, I pretty much disagree... Psylocke ONLY wins if she has a lead. Her fierces have oodles of priority and she's very quick and mobile, so she can lock an opponent out fairly easy. But her ability to give out damage sucks and she can't take hits either. So she can get away with wins on Cable and Doom sometimes. She doesn't beat Blackheart/AAA. Jumpback fierce rules her. Sentinel flies backward and calls AAA to win. Psylocke/Sentinel helps give her the upper hand in some matches, but she still can't do damage or take it. Maybe Psylocke/Tron... haha. Jin with help is good. His assist is top tier, and on point he can move around. Typhoon owns triangle jumps, and if you connect, cancel into Blodia Punch for more damage. Low drill goes under a lot of things (Sentinel ground game, Doom's j.fierce, Cable's gun [gotta have balls!]). I think Jin beats Doom and his assist is hella good on Magneto, but it's probably an uphill battle for the other top tier fights... You know, I really start to agree with Viscant... there's top tier, then everyone not named Hayato or Roll, then Hayato/Roll. Even Zangief can pull some amount of weight on a team (not that much, but some); and the work you have to put in to win is not as much as a lot of people seem to think. Just try them and see. Captain Commando shit later. EDIT: P.S. I was playing triple Morrigan on my DC yesterday and it was a fuckload of fun. Instant Soul Eraser (DP super, then DHC) is top tier! I caught a Magneto low short with it. Feels so good! Posted by teammember001 on 02:23:2002 05:46 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant I kinda agree with how Shady ranked this game, on teams rather than on individual characters. Hey, Viscant, could you post your team rankings as well? Also, woouldn't Cable/Sent/Comm(in that order) be a good counter to Storm/Sent/AAA? Posted by fLoE on 02:23:2002 07:56 AM: pryde needs to stop talking like he knows anything besides cammy 100% lololololol Posted by Gen2000 on 02:23:2002 08:47 AM: Wow, I'm suprised to see Jin mentioned, he usually considered "upper 3rd tier" by most. His AAA, unlike other AAAs, is strictly anti-rushdown IMO, it covers all sides of the character, so that means no cross-ups and all that shit. On point, again I'm suprised to see Darsik mention he be used with Doom. I don't recommend Jin W/O Doom, so I agree. Maybe people are first to say "oh gawd, his lag, blah, blah", but Doom's AAA covers that and y ou are free to throw out his high as priority attacks, his j.HP is one of the best air-to-ground attacks in the game and his j.HK is one of the best air-to-air attacks in the game. If you want to start making Jin "mobile", you would have to learn when to cancel his cr.hk, the window to cancel it is small (its somewhere before his finishes screaming..), but if you did, then you could get some decent pressure going on with this guy. The fact that all his flames move chips, is only a plus for him (which is another reason why I feel you must always have Doom with him). Another thing that kinda annoys me is how everyone say he is slow..maybe everyone is comparing his dashes to Magneto or Cammy's or something, but I don't find Jin's dash THAT slow, he seems to move around at a decent speed IMO. One of the biggest problems with Jin though is the lack of an effective poking move, his only useful poking move (cr.lp) can still be blocked high, so its not all that effective. With Doom AAA to back him up, you always get a free Blodia Punch, Doom AAA+Blodia Punch has no lag on it, since the rocks would put them in block stun long enough for Jin to recover. If the opponent super jump, Jin still recovers in time, only way to counter would be to counter-super him, but I was just listing the non-counterable Blodia Punch. Alright, that's enough of Jin though.. Glad to see War Machine get some props too, everyone tries to use him like a poor man's Iron Man and that's NOT the way he should be played. Posted by Pryde on 02:23:2002 10:14 AM: Dasrik:Er.... Well true, it'll be a hard match for Psylocke to win against Sentinel, but I've seen good Psylockes vs good Sentinels, and yes they're playing Sentinel right. Psylocke can deal some 30 - 42% combos on Sentinel, last time I check, that was pretty good against Sentinel. Tron vs Sentinel: Tron really does give Sentinel trouble, plus if she has Sentinel or Spiral assist to back her up, she has a good freaking lock down going which does hella chip damage. You WC people don't even play Tron, so I'm sure you're missing the big picture. You disagree with me on some matches, why don't you explain why and give me a decent arguement and maybe I'll see it your way, I'm not as stubborn as Viscant. Floe: you're gay, I stopped invading chicago thread, go away, before I tell JaHa to give you the figure four. lol. Posted by Raz0r on 02:23:2002 06:00 PM: This thread is odd. Posted by Dasrik on 02:25:2002 10:58 AM: Okay, I'm hella tired so I'll make this brief just so I can bump this without saying "BUMP"-- Captain Commando is hella good because he has a move for every situation and his recovery time (which is not as bad as some other characters) can be supplanted by an assist like Doom or Sentinel... since Commando can potentially control the entire space above and in front of him, he can play a lot of head games. He can beat Blackheart without ever having to jump, really (especially if you can Captain Kick his Inferno on reaction). You just have to know all of his moves to make the full use of him. Hardly any moves of his are totally useless - the closest thing is probably air Fierce Captain Fire. Just learn when are the good times to use them. Jin- Jin has good matchups, it's just difficult to get anywhere with him without taking a risk. I like him because his assist makes Magneto's job hard, and I learned to play him on point pretty much out of necessity, but if you like using him, then do it by all means. I just played a pretty decent Sentinel user with Jin and pretty much pulled a win out my ass. His best moves are probably low drill into typhoon with assist and his fierces (good as "get the fuck off me" moves) and best combo is c.jab -> s.strong xx saotome cyclone (hard to land on Cable/Sent/BH - on those guys, maybe a c.short xx blodia punch is better). Also, dynamite can be cancelled into itself. Charge down immediately during the move, and you can cancel the recovery into another one, but you can't do it RIGHT after. Pryde: - Too tired to think that much. Hit me up some other time. And by the way, I totally agree that Cammy owns Doom. Damn bitch. Posted by Eternal Blue on 02:25:2002 03:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Also, dynamite can be cancelled into itself. Charge down immediately during the move, and you can cancel the recovery into another one, but you can't do it RIGHT after. Dasrik, remember on mIRC how I was saying how Jin is good cause he can cancel his dynamite recovery into another dynamite?? LOL! Everyone laughed at me and shit and called me a scrub. Well, remember when I was saying Nak is overrated and she isn't broken??? Well, I just found out Mummy-B, a very respected SRK member believes the same thing. Why did all those people make fun of Geese? Its becaue I was ahead of my time. I dont wanna sound arrogant and all, but I think its true. Posted by Devil X on 02:25:2002 08:21 PM: i really dont know what people define as a top tier character, but to my knowledge, a top tier character is any character that has no bad match up problems. like red venom, strider, war machines in mvc1, wolvie in msh vs sf, jin, ogres in tekken tag, jin in tk4 etc. so the only fighters i believe belong in the top tier is sentinel,storm and spiral. all these so/called other top tiers can be disadvantaged in match ups. cable gets owned by quite a few characters, magneto, strider, storm, pretty much doesnt matter what AA he has hes still disadvantaged in these match ups. strider is disadvantaged agaist storm and ive heard felcia. cyc has many bad match ups. blacky cant fight doom,cable and dies badly to strider. doom gets owned by anyone with speed. on the other hand, sentinel, spiral or storm with the right assists have no bad match ups. Posted by TS on 02:25:2002 08:38 PM: Finally got MvC2 for Dreamcast on Friday...yaaaaay. Anyway, I played Hayato vs the CPU...So, so terrible...I can't understand how he could be as bad as I think he is... And my favorite MvC2 character is Ryu (giant Fireballs + Jab DP + Doom > average Magnetos). Quick question: why does nobody play Spiral/Sabretooth? Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 02:25:2002 09:48 PM: Posted by hayato15 on 02:26:2002 12:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Devil X i really dont know what people define as a top tier character, but to my knowledge, a top tier character is any character that has no bad match up problems. like red venom, strider, war machines in mvc1, wolvie in msh vs sf, jin, ogres in tekken tag, jin in tk4 etc. so the only fighters i believe belong in the top tier is sentinel,storm and spiral. all these so/called other top tiers can be disadvantaged in match ups. cable gets owned by quite a few characters, magneto, strider, storm, pretty much doesnt matter what AA he has hes still disadvantaged in these match ups. strider is disadvantaged agaist storm and ive heard felcia. cyc has many bad match ups. blacky cant fight doom,cable and dies badly to strider. doom gets owned by anyone with speed. on the other hand, sentinel, spiral or storm with the right assists have no bad match ups. doom kills spiral, dhalsim kils storm, cable kills sentinel. no top tier for you Posted by Dasrik on 02:26:2002 12:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by Eternal Blue Dasrik, remember on mIRC how I was saying how Jin is good cause he can cancel his dynamite recovery into another dynamite?? LOL! Everyone laughed at me and shit and called me a scrub. Yeah well, being able to cancel the dynamite into itself DOESN'T make Jin good, it's just something to know. It's not IMMEDIATELY cancelable into itself either so you can't just do dynamite over and over to avoid AHVB, for example. quote: Originally posted by DevilX i really dont know what people define as a top tier character, but to my knowledge, a top tier character is any character that has no bad match up problems. That's not what top tier means. If it were true, ST would have no top tier (or only one, Akuma, if you want to look at the game that way). Top tier just means generally the best characters in the game. quote: Originally posted by TS Quick question: why does nobody play Spiral/Sabretooth? Because: 1. the timing for the trap is hella tight, and 2. Sabretooth sucks ASS (whatever Viscant's said on the topic, I don't see it at all). Posted by Pryde on 02:26:2002 05:46 PM: Hm....who should I analyze this time... I think I'll try Sim's match up. Dhalsim vs Storm: Long range rush down, one of the only few characters who can actually give Storm a decent challenge. She can't run away from Sim, she can't do random Hail storms w/o getting a feet smacked in her face. Sim actually wins this match. Dhalsim vs Magneto: Same thing, long range rush down, Magneto can't do reset combos, cuz of Sim's teleport recovery, so no resets, his j.RH stuffs Magneto dash ins. This match also goes to Sim. Dhalsim vs Doom: Sim's wave dash in air dash is pretty damn quick, Doom wouldn't be able to trap Dhalsim. No random J.fierces for Doom, w.o getting c.fierce by Sim. I also say this match goes to Sim Dhalsim vs Sentinel: Long range vs Long Range, this match is pretty interesting, as I have played alot of Sentinel players with Sim. Sim actually doesn't do that bad against Sentinel, but if Sentinel has AAA, Sim does pretty bad, unless Sim has a projectile assist to protect him during rush down attacks. This match goes to Sentinel. Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:26:2002 07:00 PM: Seriously, I'd like to hear the case for Marrow. Dasrik and a couple other people said that she's second tier. Why? Also, while we're at it, why isn't Dan considered useless. His only useful moves, IMO, are his Leap-Frog Kick and Otoko Michi, and that hardly makes him viable for a team. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:26:2002 09:13 PM: Marrow is decent for killing assist. She also can get an assist comming out really well, the grab'n'ride can be cancelled into the bones super, and then that can be cancelled into another assist killer. (works WONDERS with the Hail Storm) She also had a double jump, and air special moves too keep her in the air. I don't really think she is a 2nd tier. But she's alright... (high 3rd tier most likely) Dan is trash... he's low 3rd tier. He's deadly in the corner tho... Posted by THE_LAW on 02:26:2002 09:49 PM: Word Pryde droping crazy knowledge... So somebody tell me "How Do I Win With Rouge?" I mean what are her best combos and some basic strats I can employ? Posted by Juggrknott on 02:27:2002 03:40 AM: So.... ....how does Dhalsim deal with Cable without getting his limbs fried off? And if the answer basically is "teleport", doesn't this strat suffer from the old Strider "perfect sticks" theorem? And finally, isn't the above the basic knock against Dhalsim? I mean, when his name comes up you always hear "great potential", but I never hear of anybody really persisting and getting it done with him, at least in America. People have turned Magneto inside out, and yet Dhalsim remains fairly unexplored territory. Thanks for the response... -Jugg "Oh yeah, and Dan sux re: MvC2. At least as far as I can tell..." Posted by hayato15 on 02:27:2002 06:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Juggrknott So.... ....how does Dhalsim deal with Cable without getting his limbs fried off? And if the answer basically is "teleport", doesn't this strat suffer from the old Strider "perfect sticks" theorem? And finally, isn't the above the basic knock against Dhalsim? I mean, when his name comes up you always hear "great potential", but I never hear of anybody really persisting and getting it done with him, at least in America. People have turned Magneto inside out, and yet Dhalsim remains fairly unexplored territory. Thanks for the response... -Jugg "Oh yeah, and Dan sux re: MvC2. At least as far as I can tell..." Dhalsim's teleport works like spiral, not strider, so you don't have to do soem moves, keep cable in block stun and then teleport. You just have to teleport after every AHVB startup animation(its instantly), so good cables won't even try to ahvb you or punish your assists(if they try, just teleport) which gives dhalsim freedom in this battle. cable still can ahvb by comboing it after an assist or d. HK though. Posted by Bojack on 02:27:2002 07:57 AM: Christ people, what the hell is up with this Hayato hate? He's at least scraping the bottom of the upper tier. If not actually in the upper tier. He can do really well one on one with ANYONE in the upper tier and the only battles in the top tier he has trouble with is Storm/Mags and well executed traps. His j.Hp is incredible for stuffing lots and lots of stuff. Throw in Sent. ground or some other good proj. assist and you can rush nearly worry free. And if one of those j.Hp's connects, c.lk, c.lk, s.Hp, Shiden (one hit) xx Rasetsu Zan. This does about 60-70 points on most characters. <<-GOOD DAMAGE! This does pretty good damage. As long as you stay away from his laggy sword attacks and use j.Hp, j.Hk and his lag free kicks to open up his lenghty and damaging ground combos he's a great character. Not to mention that Rasetsu Zan sets up for all kinds of DHC's including a close quaters HSF from Sent. that can be followed up with what ever. As for speed Hayato's speed is at least average. Using assists to cover his ass he can even move full screen with good speed using the little known dash+Hp rush attack. He also has a command throw, get in close, B-F+PP sets up beautifully for Engetsus which will do nearly 60-70 points of damage on average characters. <<- GOOD DAMAGE THERE! And if you land an air combo into plasma field or land the plasma field period or have three lvls, and then land another ground hit, it's easy to, c.lk, c.lk, s.Hp, Shiden (one hit) xx Black Hayato and this does over ONE HUDNRED POINTS DAMAGE!! <<-MORE GOOD DAMAGE! Hell, I can't name many characters that can pull such painfull combos ESPECIALLY with how much range and quick start up of his s.Hp and Shiden to punish mistakes. Sure his sword moves are laggy, missed specials will get you killed, missed supers will get you killed and he dies to Mags/Storm and traps but hey, so do MANY MANY other characters like SonSon, Amingo, Roll, Servbot, Zangief, Dan, Chun Li, but people never ever hate on these characters as much ESPECIALLY Viscant. He never fails to mention the low tiers and Roll/Hayato in the same sentence. I just don't get it. Hayato is at least middle tier yet people like to think he's one of the worst in the game. Sad really. All it takes is smart and careful playing and Hayato can really shine. The most underestimated character in the history of fighting games is defenatly Hayato. I can go on too if some one wants me too. I've done lots of Hayato playing and he's even got more to offer than I've said here. ---B.j. Posted by Bojack on 02:27:2002 08:13 AM: Oh yeah, about the list I made of people who suck but don't get hated on like Hayato, add Shuma Gorath, Thanos w/o meter, Marrow (I don't care what any one says about Marrow, one decent double jump AC and ok rush down and assist killing power does not make her upper tier, Duc raping Viscant's Marrow in B5 proves that), and Spiderman. There's a couple other I think that should be on the list but results prove otherwise. ---B.j. Posted by Dasrik on 02:27:2002 08:53 AM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack Oh yeah, about the list I made of people who suck but don't get hated on like Hayato, add Shuma Gorath, Thanos w/o meter, Marrow (I don't care what any one says about Marrow, one decent double jump AC and ok rush down and assist killing power does not make her upper tier, Duc raping Viscant's Marrow in B5 proves that), and Spiderman. There's a couple other I think that should be on the list but results prove otherwise. You don't know what you're talking about. How is Hayato going to make someone not block everything he throws at them? He has no mixup whatsoever. He's only coming in with a low short or jump fierce. If this weren't MvC2, he might do okay as a mid-tier character. But throwing in assists into the game completely destroys Hayato's game as well as anyone who only relied on landing a hit (*coughRyucoughSpidey*). Against anyone mildly aware, Hayato is never going to land a hit because of this. Hop back, call out an assist (anti-air or projectile) and chill... By the way, 100 points for 3 levels is hardly something to write home about when many teams can kill or leave an opponent near death with a 3 level DHC. P.S. Spider-Man is assy, but at least he has an air dash and projectile. Thanos dies for free to anyone who holds up-back. Viscant picked Marrow on Duc because she had beaten Duc's Spiral before. Posted by Bojack on 02:27:2002 09:23 AM: Ahhhh, the good old, "Hayato will never land the hits he needs for his combos" argument. The same could be said about well, Guile, Charlie, Bison, Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, MegaMan, Juggernaut, Venom, Spidey, CapCom, Felicia, and pretty much any one else who is NOT top tier or upper tier or who doesn't have good air dashes and or double, triple jumps. That's a really crappy argument to make. Sure people can use assits to stop Hayato cold. They can also be used to make MANY other characters die, characters like Bison or Collosus, people who aren't top tier and also aren't hated on like Hayato. Like I said, the only shit that outright beats out Hayato one on one are Storm/Mags and good traps. In any and all non top tier play he's as good if not better than the next guy or gal. And Viscant's Marrow beats out Duc's Spiral? Maybe once or twice but beating out Duc's Spiral consistently? I REALLY REALLY doubt it. As for the Black Hayato combo I posted. I did note that it does OVER one hundred points of damage. Over meaning upwards of 110-115 points or so easy if assits are added in the combo on weaker characters. If you dont' think that's one hell of a lot of damage for ONE character to do well, that's your perogative but if you only have one character left how can you pull said devastating DHC? ---B.j. Posted by Dasrik on 02:27:2002 10:24 AM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack Ahhhh, the good old, "Hayato will never land the hits he needs for his combos" argument. The same could be said about well, Guile, Charlie, Bison, Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, MegaMan, Juggernaut, Venom, Spidey, CapCom, Felicia, and pretty much any one else who is NOT top tier or upper tier or who doesn't have good air dashes and or double, triple jumps. That's a really crappy argument to make. Perhaps in the realm of theory, characters like Guile, Juggernaut and even Magneto "have to attack to win" and so they die. But with Hayato, I'm dead serious. He will NOT land the hits. The reason is that he has to mixup game whatever, no projectiles, no good overheads, no quick dashes, no abusable safe-if-blocked specials. He literally has NOTHING to work with except decent range, and since that's his ONLY dope thing, it's easy to stop. quote: Sure people can use assits to stop Hayato cold. They can also be used to make MANY other characters die, characters like Bison or Collosus, people who aren't top tier and also aren't hated on like Hayato. Bison has a safe scissor kick, really good projectile (grenade), and a quick and powerful launcher, not to mention a quick start and safe air super. Colossus can do 100 points with ONE level, and he has super armor (which lets him block). quote: Like I said, the only shit that outright beats out Hayato one on one are Storm/Mags and good traps. In other words, everything top tier. quote: In any and all non top tier play he's as good if not better than the next guy or gal. Omega Red completely destroys Hayato. Iceman's rush (s.rh, icebeam) is better. So is Cammy's and Psylocke's. Iron Man and War Machine can just fly and hit Hayato with the bugzapper. And down the list. Megaman, Guile, Charlie and BBH own Hayato for free (he can't get through the barrage of quick-start projectiles). Wolverine outrushes Hayato, as does every Wolverine wannabe. Juggernaut exploits the lag of Hayato's good moves like no one's business. (Felicia can do that, too, by the way.) Morrigan superjumps and fires soul fists on Hayato forever to win. Fact is, EVERYONE beats Hayato by just not getting hit. It's incredibly easy to do (no fast dash, no mixup, no projectiles). quote: And Viscant's Marrow beats out Duc's Spiral? Maybe once or twice but beating out Duc's Spiral consistently? I REALLY REALLY doubt it. Marrow had beaten Duc's Spiral in every matchup prior. (It was dope thing Jay was saving.) But Spiral landed a throw and mashed it out for 50%, got swords, peace. quote: As for the Black Hayato combo I posted. I did note that it does OVER one hundred points of damage. Over meaning upwards of 110-115 points or so easy if assits are added in the combo on weaker characters. If you dont' think that's one hell of a lot of damage for ONE character to do well, that's your perogative but if you only have one character left how can you pull said devastating DHC?---B.j. One-on-one situations aren't worth discussing. They usually come down to "last man standing" and in most cases that's the AAA. And a good team super DHC does 125 pts. easy on Cable. Without assists. Posted by Pryde on 02:27:2002 03:46 PM: Answer these questions BoJack. Can Hayato Wavedash under photons? Can Hayato chip anyone with out worrying about getting hit? Are any of his assist actually useful? Can he even infinite a helper? My guess is not, cuz his launcer has too much lag. Hayato can't even do any of this stuff, hell, I'll choose Dan and Servebot over Hayato anyday. I'm sure Dasrik and many other people would agree with me. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 02:27:2002 03:59 PM: i think the problem is that hayato is always being called the worst guy in the game!!!...now if you dont like hayato thats cool but why must people always talk so much shiet like that.....all post some hayato things maybe but again since you cant hit someone with hayato it doesnt matter right? ..... sigh...im not saying hayato is awsome or anything but always making him out to be so horrible makes me sad. Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:27:2002 04:19 PM: The problem is that Dan can beat Hayato. Cover assist + Leap-Frog Kick until he gets Hayato in the corner, then do all his crazy corner comboes until Hayato dies. If Dan can beat the character without Otoko Michi, said character sucks. And thanks for the Marrow info. I'll have to try that next time I use my X-Chicks team. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:27:2002 04:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Answer these questions BoJack. Can Hayato Wavedash under photons? Can Hayato chip anyone with out worrying about getting hit? Are any of his assist actually useful? Can he even infinite a helper? My guess is not, cuz his launcer has too much lag. Hayato can't even do any of this stuff, hell, I'll choose Dan and Servebot over Hayato anyday. I'm sure Dasrik and many other people would agree with me. No I don't agree with you. Servbot does not do as much damage as Hayato, but he is sure annoying! Anyway, Bojack, with all those charaters you said, not alot of them HAVE to go in and get hits. Megaman has that annoying trap. While CapCom has good keepaway skill and damn good against BH. Bison has a handy dandy teleport, fly mode, and I heard along time ago he had a trap with Doom. Venom has the Venom fang, and an airdash. Da da da.. I could go on, but Hayato isn't all that you make him out to be. But Darsk made it apparent that Hayato isn't good. Posted by LighteningStorm on 02:27:2002 05:31 PM: Wow, there's a lot of love/hate going on about Hayato! I think I'll opt out of that one. I need to comment on some other things said a while ago. Blackheart vs CapCom (neither with assist): Blackheart should not lose this match. CapCom's AAA is the only anti-blackheart thing about him, and that's because the other point character should be able to capitalize on what it accomplishes. Now, Blackheart should not OWN CapCom one on one, but he should pull off the win. See the key here is to realize that you can't do to CapCom what you can do to everybody else. There are a small set of things that are the ONLY things most people know how to do with BH and those are: a. J.RH b. J.FP c. FP-Inferno xx HOD d. AAA xx Inferno xx HOD Well you can't do these against CapCom. What you have to do with capcom is lure him into doing his Captain Sword or if he has no meter, lure him into captain corridor. How do you do this? Jump over him but DON'T attack. Every CapCom is going to try to anticipate you're RH Demos and try the Corridor xx Sword trick, when you block them thrust block the sword so you don't fall to the ground drop the demons afterward and do what ever from there. Or you have the more risky option of SJ.RH quickly cancel into airdash (either back or forward) quickly cancel again into block. This will lure the smarter CapCom player who waits to see Demons before doing the old Corridor xx Sword thing. Basically the key to his match is doing the right thing at the right time. If CapCom never jumps lure the Corridor xx Sword. If CapCom does jump (well he shouldn't be doing this) murder him. Another option for CapCom on the ground is to do the LP-Inferno xx HOD. This will psyche out the Captain commando into doing that forward kick and he'll get hit by the close inferno and the HOD will focus under him there. If he doesn't do the kick, he's trapped behind it and the HOD will rise under him doing chip damage. Before you come with the argument of doing the captain fire there is another option when the CapComs learn and start doing that. You can do the FP-Inferno xx Judgement Day, the inferno will pin him to the ground and the Judgement day will chip some as well. Also for Psylocke vs Storm: I agree Psylocke can put up a fight against Storm, but Storm should win. Also her Psy-Flash doesn't go through the Typhoon... it appears to sometimes because of the nature of the typhoon. If you watch the typhoon or see it paused it isn't as tall as it appears when it's moving. So sometimes the flash goes over it. If the Typhoon is done slightly off the ground the typhoon takes out the flash every time. The flash does go through the hail storm. Psylocke vs BH: Psylocke should win this match. That is win it, not own it. All psylocke has to do is keep constant Psy-Flashes on the screen. BH can't do JACK about them, he can attempt to jump and to the same-ole RH Demons, Psylocke simply dashes under them, jumps and destroys. As for the FP Demons......Psy-Flash that shit. Yes the FP Demons, cancel out the flash, but again, it's about being smart and doing things at the right time. Psylocke needs to see the demons and the jump before doing the flash. Anyway, which characters beat which other characters is really all a matter of knowing what you can and cannot do against that character. People get locked into doing the same thing over and over and don't know that the character they are using has more than that same old tired arsenal they use. It is my opinion that BH is the most underrated character simply because all people know is Jumping Demons, and inferno xx HOD. He has considerably more than this. Posted by Pryde on 02:27:2002 05:35 PM: Foo! At least servebot can chip with out worrying about taking a big combo, plus servebot - G, with Doom-B assist = 15% + chip damage on most characters. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:27:2002 05:45 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Foo! At least servebot can chip with out worrying about taking a big combo, plus servebot - G, with Doom-B assist = 15% + chip damage on most characters. Bah they both suck! Posted by LighteningStorm on 02:27:2002 05:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by THE_LAW Word Pryde droping crazy knowledge... So somebody tell me "How Do I Win With Rouge?" I mean what are her best combos and some basic strats I can employ? Winning with Rogue is difficult, and impossible against certain characters and tactics. But some basic things: People abuse her j.df.FK but this is actually way too risky to do as it does not have the priority is should and most launchers beat it. You can get a free regular kiss move by doing simple ground combo of lp, f.mp, kiss - do this only when they are blocking. If they actually get hit with the lp continue it with lp, f.mp, s.RH, jump 1234, (optional d.RH), then kiss. Doing this whole thing however with speed-up is strange and a little different. Because with speedup on her f.mp rushes through the opponent and has massive crossing ability.... problem: it can cross you up too and mess up your combo if you don't suddenly turn it around and finish. This often happens in the middle of her air combo too which will force you to do the kiss motion the opposite way. If you accidentally do her advancing punches on the ground cancel it into her super - even if they block! The recovery from the super is less than that of the punches. Also if you have a second character who has a safe super you can quickly cancel that out to save Rogue from eating what ever massive combo or super they plan on doing. Her air dash is a very nice and abuseable thing too, her j.FP has great priority and can be (like everyone elses) used as a lead in to the whole ground combo into air combo. I personally don't use her c.FP as a launcher as it doesn't have half the range as her s.RH does and is quite awkward. A nice thing: If you are in the corner and kiss the other character such that it throws them to the corner as soon as she lets go of them, do the SUPER, it connects on all characters that are not Sentinel, Juggernaut, and Hulk. I beleive it does connect on Colossus and Zangief though. And when I say "as soon as she lets go" I mean it has to be immediately, for if they fall at all she will only hit once.... she'll still be safe, but it'll suck to lose the super like that. Also if you get either the super or the kiss off such that the other character lands in the corner like that, she can run over do c.lk s.RH and run into the whole air combo again. This I believe does work on even Sentinal, Juggs, and Hulk. Ok, last thing: Super Armor and Speed up are the BEST things to get from characters as a kiss, with Power up and Defense up coming in a close second. Super Armor takes on the properties of that characters Super Armor. Colossus is the best super armor to have, as she (like him) cannot be knocked down but can block, also her super armor lasts FAR longer than his does. Zangiefs super armor from mecha-Zangief is kinda sweet too... but she can not block at all like he can't, and she walks really slow. She does however still have her same dash speed and air movement speed. Also it is good to note what she gets from certain characters and when that changes. For example... most people don't know that Rogue can get speed up from Silver Samauri, when he has the lightening sword. Super armor when he has the ice sword, power from the fire sword and defense with the normal sword. Posted by Bojack on 02:27:2002 06:01 PM: Yeah. you're all right, what the hell was I thinking. Since Hayato has ABSOLUTLY nothing that remotely resembles an "I win for free" tactic and because he can't just dish out special after special he's so worthless. Because nothing with Hayato is abusable he's so crappy. Whatever, I hope Capcom gives Hayato a safe fireball in the next game if it's ever made so people stop hating on him cuz then he'll have what every one wants him to have. Then even Hayato can participate in the run all day and shoot shit like all the characters that supposedly beat him out right. BTW, Omega Red will not completely destroy Hayato. s.Hp/j.Hp tends to stuff lots of stuff OR can do. Not to mention Hayato's dash and slash can be used to get out of many OR corner traps since they usually involve diagonal up Omega Strikes. As for Guile/Charlie beating out Hayato, well, sure, they shoot out slow ass sonic boom, Hayato super jumps waits for predictable AAA then match resets. As for Megaman, Megabusters don't chip, Hayato only has to get to about medium range and wait for opportunity to Shiden xx Rasetsu Zan if MM does anything stupid. You said something about rushdown with Iceman using s.Hk's and Icebeams? That's a stupid ass idea. Any AAA shits on that strat. Even at close range I'm not sure but it may be possible to s.Hp or Shiden xx Rasetsu Zan that shit. You also talk about punishing Hayato's laggy ass moves? Well, if you're a moron then yeah, you'll actually be using said laggy moves but no seems to remember Hayato has lag free kicks and his j.Hp/Hk have about the same amount of lag as regular jumpins from other characters so saying Juggs owns Hayato's laggy ass is a bad argument since Juggs can own pretty much any one wants to attack slower than Mags/Storm. How does Hayato beat out non top tier rushdown? By being safe and waiting for an opening to jump in or cross up with assist or by mounting his own j.Hp rushdown. If I remember correctly, Hayato's j.Hp/Hk has enough range and priority to beat out Cammy and Psylockes launcher potentially giving Hayato an EDGE in those fights since he'll get relatively free jump ins. Also, for the other guy, Pryde. Juggernaut is about the only character in the game who can't get around photons, actually I think even he can get around photons with an lp Juggspunch. Yes, Hayato has this weird dash and slash move that no one really knows about that lets him dash like full screen. The move has lag at the end sure but not enough for sj. height Doom to punish. And no, Hayato can' chip very well. The only four characters in the game IMO that CAN chip well period are Doom/Spiral/Sent/and BH w/ meter. His expansion assist is ok. Even sets up for the Sent. semi infinite. Also sets up for most beams. And yes, he might not be able to do a relaunch helper infinite but check this out, he has this infinite if I'm not mistake, c.lk, c.Hp, lp,lk,lp,lk, D+Hk, land relaunch. Remy Saotome, j.Hp's stuff Dan's shit really well. And even if Dan get's Hayato in the corner, a simply push block resets the whole match. And yes, people I realize Hayato's limits. I know he's not THAT great but he's hella better than most people say. He's at least mid tier or better. Well, I hope I didn't miss anything. And Viscant's Marrow really beats out Duc's Spiral? Well, I'll be a damned. I didn't know that. I'd love to know how the hell Jay does it. That's amazing to get Marrow to beat out Spiral. Well, I guess if anything's possible Jay can do it right? ---B.j. Posted by TS on 02:27:2002 06:43 PM: Nobody likes Hayato because it seems to us that he's like the worst character in the game. Not because he loses to Cable or Spiral, but because everyone else is better than him. Though to be fair, I haven't really seen a decent Shuma Gorath or Roll or Kobun. Posted by FluffyXXL on 02:27:2002 07:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack BTW, Omega Red will not completely destroy Hayato. s.Hp/j.Hp tends to stuff lots of stuff OR can do. Not to mention Hayato's dash and slash can be used to get out of many OR corner traps since they usually involve diagonal up Omega Strikes. Yes, but Omega Red is not that linear. You can do do LK-Strike and cancel right after opponent blocks to be right next to your opponent. You can retract it to be further away. You can use HK-Strike and retract for a feint or you can cancel it and come down with a high priority J.Fierce, or just block and bait out the assist. You're saying he can dash under this, and he probably can, but that just OR is going to use OC.HK XX LK-Strike from full screen and make you block again, further keeping you on the defensive. He may be able to get out of one aspect of OR's tactics, but what can Hayato really do to beat OR? quote: Originally posted by Bojack As for Guile/Charlie beating out Hayato, well, sure, they shoot out slow ass sonic boom, Hayato super jumps waits for predictable AAA then match resets. Hayato super jumps and gets SJ thrown and comboed afterward. GGPO. Take to the air against these two and it's just like against Cammy. Fight them on the ground and you get pieced out as well. quote: Originally posted by Bojack As for Megaman, Megabusters don't chip, Hayato only has to get to about medium range and wait for opportunity to Shiden xx Rasetsu Zan if MM does anything stupid. So, you get to mid-screen against Megaman and you're waiting for him to do something stupid. So, Megaman does Jump back, Call Projectile assist, J.Fierce, lands, calls rockball, and kicks it? How about call projectile (most likely Sentinel for this case) S.Fierce (hold) drop a Rockball, kick it, charge Megabuster and wait? Ok, how about Jump back, Projectile assist, J.Fierce, C.Roundhouse XX LP-Tornado? What about jump back+PA (projectile assist)+J.Fierce, S.fierce, leaf shield, then jump back+PA+J.Fierce, throw leaf sheild, etc... When does he do something stupid? quote: Originally posted by Bojack You said something about rushdown with Iceman using s.Hk's and Icebeams? That's a stupid ass idea. Any AAA shits on that strat. Even at close range I'm not sure but it may be possible to s.Hp or Shiden xx Rasetsu Zan that shit. Actually, the only AAAs that come to my mind that shit on that strat are Cammy, Commando and Ryu. Every other AAA will hit for multiple hits, and Iceman will be way too far away to get hit by the rest of it if you dash towards with the S.HK from max range. If blocked, it's a free Icebeam for chip. With a Projectile assist, it's another free Icebeam of chip, plus the projectile. BTW, this is a far range tactic. You don't do S.HK at close ranges, nor do you Icebeam at close range. quote: Originally posted by Bojack You also talk about punishing Hayato's laggy ass moves? Well, if you're a moron then yeah, you'll actually be using said laggy moves but no seems to remember Hayato has lag free kicks and his j.Hp/Hk have about the same amount of lag as regular jumpins from other characters so saying Juggs owns Hayato's laggy ass is a bad argument since Juggs can own pretty much any one wants to attack slower than Mags/Storm. The lag on his moves aren't always punished on recovery. Loosing momentum because you're moves have too much lag is also punishment, especially against faster rushdown like Wolverine and Cammy. Any move you use will have startup and faster characters will just C.Short and combo your ass. quote: Originally posted by Bojack How does Hayato beat out non top tier rushdown? By being safe and waiting for an opening to jump in or cross up with assist or by mounting his own j.Hp rushdown. If I remember correctly, Hayato's j.Hp/Hk has enough range and priority to beat out Cammy and Psylockes launcher potentially giving Hayato an EDGE in those fights since he'll get relatively free jump ins. Fact: Hayato cannot handle top tier. Fact: Hayato looses to non-top tier rushdown (basic fast characters like Wolverine, Cammy, etc...) Fact: Hayato can't rushdown non-top tier keepaway (Blackheart, Megaman, etc... Fact: Hayato doesn't do much beyond block and die. These are facts. They cannot be disputed by saying "my opponent will do something stupid" because they are based on the idea that players are of equal caliber. Hayato does not have any moves that he can use as set-ups cuz of his lag. He has to respond to what you're doing with his ultra-slow sword attacks. He does not possess the mobility to get in on characters that will fight him from mid-screen, many of whom can just outprioritize him at close range anyway. If Hayato blocks a lot, he gets chipped or thrown or crossed up. That's a basic outcome of blocking too much in MVC2. Blocking = Loosing. Posted by Pryde on 02:27:2002 07:08 PM: The Law - Rogue is actually not a bad character, people tend to under estimate her alot. She has unexplored rush down tactics only done by the computer. Her kiss is best asset and remember, if they don't roll the assist, you get a free super, how? Well after kiss, try dashing in with s.Fierce into her super. It actually works, try it. Her Punch super is realy useful when it comes down to her as a last character, since you flinch you eat the super. Just think of it as a Juggernaut super, but you have to press the 2 assist buttons to get it out. Bo Jack: Well, there has never been a player out there who has won a tourney using Hayato. We all know that Juggernaut can't get out of Doom's photons, but hey, he does have options. He can try Head crushing out of it, since it'll bring to the other side of the screen, but true, Doom does kill Jugz for free. As for Hayato now, he just sucks, I can't even think of anyone worse than him, besides Roll. Look at servebot, he doesn't have any "win for free tactics" I still think he's better than Hayato, since he can chip yo ass and rememember, that's unrecoverable energy there. He really doesn't have anything going for him, seriously. No OTG, No decent throws to set up combos. He's basically in the game just to look "cool". I take back the part about wave dashing under photons, since I didn't realize how fast it really was. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 02:27:2002 07:10 PM: Man we need some more people besides just me and Bojack defending hayato..lol...theres another guy that said he played as hayato maybe he will argue with us. well i dont real have much to say about hayato in a sence that isnt sorta obvoius i guess. I dont use the qcf+pp though.....my main thing is to once i get in close hopefully somehow all hit(i never said it wasnt hard to hit with hayato.) the oponent then go into the hp shiden(qcf+hp) then on the second hit do the qcf+kk this will hurt more than a qcf+p cancle qcf+pp....also after this if you hit with it and the other person rolls just hold down and do a lk and then gointo a launcher....ive hit with this so many times....im not sure if its that you can block right when you come out or what ever (i dont play much mvc2 now adays) but ussaly the person has to end up rolling and then jumping away right when they get out of the roll. The only time i use the qcf+pp is when im comboing both the other character and the buddy beacuse if you try the shiden into qcf+kk it ends up missing half the time. But the qcf+pp takes both them out.....i use the plasma combos alot also alot of times you can end up catching the oponent "sleeping" in a sence and hit with the low attack then go into shiden ect.....plasma combos are good against buddys since you dont get pushed away and your always moving foward wich makes for easy combo against both....also if the end up blocking the plasma combos after the block the back+lp,lp,hp,hk the press back and hp and do that plasma combo right after it....it often catches people off gaurd....now i know you can push block and yadda yadda but it works sometimes. You can delay the plasma combos what ever to throw off timeing off thing ect.... Heres somethings i dont get some people try to say you can use buddys during plasma combos and durining the plasma field...ahhh....no you can...not saying any of you said this but ive heard this before. I do think that hayato needs good buddies though....just the way it is. I usealy end up picking sentinel and like black heart.....hayato needs protection!!!!.....its hard to compete with cheap ass dumb type traps and hopefully this will help you....if you ever hit with a qcf+kk you can go right into sentinels qcf+kk semi infinite thingy.....i super jump alot with hayato i just super jump and alot of hp and try somehow to work my way in crossing them up ect..lots of assists sometimes what ever.....but the thing is even though hayato isnt that great..hes combos are so powerfull that you realy only have to hit once sometimes...... i dunno thats some of what i do....theres others but that even more basic knowledge i would think...oh well..... I guess i dont play much of the game anymore any way so i probably shouldnt complain. EDIT: one thing i will agree with you guys though hayato can not chip IMO....and if he does he gets hit after it....at least in the sence i would not say he is a effective chipper. Posted by Pryde on 02:27:2002 07:22 PM: Final Show Down and Bo Jack: Why don't you both analyze how well he doesn't against the top tier characters and analyze how well he does against the 2nd tier characters. He just can't compete. He's not no where near 2nd tier or 3rd tier. His best ranking I'd give him is UPPER LAST TIER. Hell, I don't think he even deserves that ranking, since Gief, Dan, and Servebot beats his ass, best ranking would be mid last tier, fuck that, he's bottom lower tier. Posted by Xinith on 02:27:2002 07:47 PM: This here's Bojack. Due to post limits, I'm using an old screen name to keep arguing. Pryde, since you seem so determined to claim Hayato as worst in game would you please tell me how Dan/'Geif/Servbot beat Hayato. I cannot see how they can. j.hp, c.lk, c.lk, s.Hp, Shiden one hit xx Rasetsu Zan hurts like a bitch. And against any non top tier it's not that hard to land. Just USE KICKS you can easily win matches with Hayato if you NEVER EVER use his sword out side of jump ins and combos. But no one seems to realize that Hayato can use his feet too. As for Fluffy XXL, well, since getting airthrown by Guile/Charlie/Cammy is easily rollbale/techable I'll just ignore that whole post. Especially since s.Hp also beats out predictable Omega Strikes and leaves Hayato pretty safe. Adn cuz you thik Hayato's moves are slow. Last time I checked Shiden was pretty quick. But anyways, I digress. I can give Hayato strats and combos all day long and tell you which or Hayato's attacks counter what but no one is listening to me now so I'll guess I'll just give up and move on. ---B.j. P.s. Hayato IS NOT BEATEN by Servbot. Just taking Serv's supers does less damage than blocking. I'm not afraid of Servbot even when using Hayato. His chipping powers are far overrated. Especially since it's not hard to sj. then take a few hits from Serv's super and then be done with it. Posted by TS on 02:27:2002 08:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde His best ranking I'd give him is UPPER LAST TIER. Hell, I don't think he even deserves that ranking, since Gief, Dan, and Servebot beats his ass, So funny to hear that said, in any context. Posted by Pryde on 02:27:2002 08:24 PM: Zangief beats Hayato by transforming into Mecha-Gief and he Mecha Gief will beat Hayato, cuz they'll trade hits and Gief will just throw or AC his ass, in the end, Mecha Gief will come out on top.. Servebot, why don't you try ACing him with Hayato, it's not gonna be ez, and if he does, he won't get a complete combo. Servebot can just runaway and build meter all day, since Hayato can't even chip servebot at all. As for Dan, I'm not a Dan player, so maybe someone else can argue for me on that part. Fluffy knows his stuff, I would agree with most of his stuff, since he does know MvC2 pretty well, I've played with him and he can compete. Posted by FluffyXXL on 02:27:2002 09:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Xinith As for Fluffy XXL, well, since getting airthrown by Guile/Charlie/Cammy is easily rollbale/techable I'll just ignore that whole post. If you roll, you're at roughly full screen. Guile or Charlie will just call his projectile assist and throw a slow ass sonic boom at you and you have to jump/SJ. Back to square one, you're going to get thrown. quote: Originally posted by Xinith Especially since s.Hp also beats out predictable Omega Strikes and leaves Hayato pretty safe. If it wasn't for the fact that S.HP has hella start-up and Omega Strike doesn't, this might work. quote: Originally posted by Xinith Adn cuz you thik Hayato's moves are slow. Last time I checked Shiden was pretty quick. And last time I checked, a blocked Shiden means you get hit. quote: Originally posted by Xinith But anyways, I digress. I can give Hayato strats and combos all day long and tell you which or Hayato's attacks counter what but no one is listening to me now so I'll guess I'll just give up and move on. I am listening. I am also bring up counter-arguements, which you are easily denying. Don't respond if you don't want to, but I will because this is what a discussion forum is supposed to be about. It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, just that there is relevent discussion going on. BTW, PEOPLE NEED TO RATE THREADS GOD DAMN IT! That's what it's for. If you're going to click on a thread, rate it! That is all Posted by Gen2000 on 02:27:2002 10:04 PM: I'm not really trying to be on anyone side here, but just wanted to point out that Hayato isn't that useless. The things about mix-up game is true, he really don't have non out side of tick throwing, but almost every other character in the game has this option as well. The lag of his LP Shiden and that of Bison Scissors Kick is almost the same, noticed I said almost, I haven't went all out and tested this, but the recovery of the LP Shiden isn't that bad, plus in this assist filled game, you can easily cover it up with and ground covering type assist (Sent G, Strom Projectile anyone?). Also, a problem with Hayato is that has more jacked up reach+priority than Strider did in MvC1, cept Hayato has like Jin's type lag on his ground sword attacks, so you can basically not count his P attacks on the ground unless you're working around ground type assist with him or you are SURE they are gonna hit. With Hayato on the ground, you are mostly always going to be using his kicks on the ground instead, only using the P attacks after you connect a kick. Also, give the guy alittle credit for air-to-ground priority, if anything he got, its that, j.hp beats out alot of attacks on the ground and some vs. air. His B&B combo of cr.lk >st.hk, Shiden (one hit), Shiden Super (whatever the name is) does good damage, but then it all falls back to the point that Darsik was making, when will he even get a chance to really pull this off? I think what Darsik was trying to point out is that you don't have to worry about chip or mix-up games with Hayato, so why go on the offensive so much against this guy? You could just turtle and play counter game against him. His supers, Capcom messed up on his supers recovery, I don't know if they sucked this bad in Plasma Sword or what, but they have recovery on it even if you hit which is bad. Doing his B&B corner, the opponent can throw out a j.lk as they are falling and combo him from there. His shockwave super gets counter by anything that has 1 frame start up (AHVBs, Temp/Hailstorm, Proton Cannon DHC combos, etc..). Plasma Field looks good on paper, "oh wow, unlimited supers". I think Capcom gave this super as a teaser to Hayato fans/players cause his supers aren't anything that could be abused anyways, so its a waste of super (yes, I know Plasma Field feature was in Plasma Sword series, just saying how bad it sucks). Only time I would find this useful is if you want 1 level B.Hayato combos, but then it all falls back to the case of "will you even get a chance to do it?" I would put Servbot over Hayato, but some of you are overestimating him alittle, his Gamma Lunch Rush can be avoided or reduced in damage by super jumping at an angle towards him. The only true way to take full damage or chip damage is with BH's AAA, any other way (calling out other assist, whiffing from normals or his specials), can still be avoided if you super jump at an angle. Hayato would still have more priority over Servbot, so he could be on pressure on him, but Hayato still dies to Servbot's half-ass battering and Gamma Lunch Rush, if Hayato had an air dash, he could avoid it completely, but he don't so he gets the reduced chip damage, which is still chip damage, so the little bot wins. About this whole whole Dan owning Hayato thing, I'm not seeing it. Dan is pretty much like Hayato minus the range and speed of him. He has the better assist (his AAA), but we're talking about them both on point, neither of them really owns each other really. The match would be pretty boring with a whole lot of poking and maybe some tick throwing in there. Hayato's air attacks beats anything Dan whiff out on the ground cept his dragon punch. That's my two cents on this whole Hayato thing. Btw, while I'm here, how do you guys rate Shuma then? Vs. Hayato even if you still want to bash the guy some more, heh. Posted by Dasrik on 02:27:2002 10:57 PM: LighteningStorm: - Several things wrong with your theory: First of all, Blackheart without assist dies to, like, everybody. Without an AAA to discourage people from dashing under fierce demons and owning BH, he... well... he gets his fierce demons dashed under. Since there's no way Blackheart solo is going to keep anyone full screen unless they superjump (dumb thing to do on BH anyway), he can't do any damage. But for purposes of argument, let's give BH an AAA. You're tossing out the things that average Blackhearts do that Commando can no-brainer stop. But you're making your opponent just as stupid by assuming he's always going to go for Corridor xx Sword. Why waste your super on something that may whiff altogether? Commando deals with superjumped roundhouse demons the same way everyone should - wavedash. If BH airdashes back and throws more, peace out to BH - Sword that shit. But wavedashing under RH demons gives you options to sj.behind him and fierce him in the back, or airthrow. Another option Commando has is to superjump straight up when BH does and fire a Captain Fire. Connected or not, Commando moves forward on the way down and gets ready to block the AAA that is probably coming out. Then he has options to punish the assist with Corridor xx Sword, and chances are he'll hit BH as well since he'll be scrambling to cover his helper. Your use of jab inferno vs. Captain Kick is pretty brilliant (let's hear it for jab inferno users!) - on the other hand, if Commando holds his ground and keeps throwing out Jennety, BH is going to be hard pressed to do Inferno at all anyway. If BH is on the ground and not in close, qcf+rh is pretty much totally safe. As for fierce inferno xx judgement day, it's easy to see judgement day coming and change plans (superjump after you block the inferno). This is just Commando without assist. Give him an assist of his own and things can get ugly. Give him Blackheart assist? BH dies a miserable death. There's very very very little BH can do against Commando/BH, regardless of the help BH carries (outside of maybe B-Cable - CAHVB that shit). BTW... Blackheart says "Blackheart rises", not "Anti-Christ". (to be continued) Posted by Iceman on 02:27:2002 11:12 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack Yeah. you're all right, what the hell was I thinking. Since Hayato has ABSOLUTLY nothing that remotely resembles an "I win for free" tactic and because he can't just dish out special after special he's so worthless. Because nothing with Hayato is abusable he's so crappy. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up right there. quote: As for Megaman, Megabusters don't chip, Hayato only has to get to about medium range and wait for opportunity to Shiden xx Rasetsu Zan if MM does anything stupid. LOL! This really has to be the worst reasoning on what makes a character good ever. Good characters (and good players using good characters) force mistakes, not sit on their ass and wait for them. Posted by Dasrik on 02:27:2002 11:14 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack As for Guile/Charlie beating out Hayato, well, sure, they shoot out slow ass sonic boom, Hayato super jumps waits for predictable AAA then match resets. Guile superjumps, air flash kicks (which beats Hayato's everything, yes, even his j.hp). Hayato takes damage and flies if he gets hit, falls down onto sonic boom if he doesn't. quote: How does Hayato beat out non top tier rushdown? By being safe and waiting for an opening to jump in or cross up with assist or by mounting his own j.Hp rushdown. If I remember correctly, Hayato's j.Hp/Hk has enough range and priority to beat out Cammy and Psylockes launcher potentially giving Hayato an EDGE in those fights since he'll get relatively free jump ins. 1. won't beat Cannon Spike/Psi-Blade (which can be followed up). So if your opponent reads your jump, you're taking damage. 2. *coughAAAcough* quote: The only four characters in the game IMO that CAN chip well period are Doom/Spiral/Sent/and BH w/ meter. Don't forget Marrow, Megaman w/Rockball, Servbot, Silver Samurai, Iceman, and Iron Man for starters. quote: And Viscant's Marrow really beats out Duc's Spiral? Well, I'll be a damned. I didn't know that. I'd love to know how the hell Jay does it. That's amazing to get Marrow to beat out Spiral. Well, I guess if anything's possible Jay can do it right? You superjump a lot and build meter by doing blocked rushes into bonerang. If Spiral tries to start swords, homing swords. If Spiral calls assist, homing swords. quote: P.s. Hayato IS NOT BEATEN by Servbot. Just taking Serv's supers does less damage than blocking. I'm not afraid of Servbot even when using Hayato. His chipping powers are far overrated. Especially since it's not hard to sj. then take a few hits from Serv's super and then be done with it. Take the hit from Servbot and you risk Servbot DHCing into something that actually hurts. And if Servbot tries to do the chip super to you while you're on the ground and unoccupied, he's an idiot. quote: Btw, while I'm here, how do you guys rate Shuma then? Vs. Hayato even if you still want to bash the guy some more, heh. He's kinda shitty. Eyeballs don't go fullscreen, mystic smash does no damage whatsoever, Chaos Dimension does pathetic ass damage. He suffers a lot from being denied his mediums, too. His mystic smash assist is decent at controlling space, though, and his jumping fierces are good. Posted by hayato15 on 02:28:2002 12:00 AM: Dasrik : Can Comm really captain Storm on reaction against Inferno? Or its between Inf, HoD? Dan vs Hayato Dan has more mobility. His QCB+K can be used in the air so you can used to get in(since you can also choose at which height you want to do it, while hayato's only option to get to the other side of teh screen is on the ground). Dan has a better throw(specially in teh air) and an almost 100% combo in the corner, with a d.LK faster than any of hayato's pokes. Dan has a good assist(maybe 2), and can works crossups easier using his QCB+K or DP while calling assists. I never saw a Dan vs Hayato fight, but Dan does better overall for practically any team, with some mobility, a decent assist, OK combos and good throw priority. I think dan would win against hayato, but even if not, that doesn't make dhalsim better than storm or felicia better than Strider. Hayato is bottom bottom tier. I think that even Roll has better options than him(double jump for mobility, better throw, size advantage, projectiles, projectile assists, little chip, and combos that do decent damage if you're good enough to put it out). Posted by Juggrknott on 02:28:2002 12:45 AM: Thanks for taking a crack at my Dhalsim questions, hayato15. I appreciate it. -Jugg Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:28:2002 01:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack BTW, Omega Red will not completely destroy Hayato. s.Hp/j.Hp tends to stuff lots of stuff OR can do. Not to mention Hayato's dash and slash can be used to get out of many OR corner traps since they usually involve diagonal up Omega Strikes. What the hell kind of OR's have you been playing? OR will eat Hayato alive. And since OR gives Magneto a hard time. What can Hayato do that a super fast, triangle jumping, mad throw range, mad quick normals (compared to Hayato's slow ass normals) full screne dash. In other words, Hayato will be lucky to touch OR. Whatever Hayato can do, it can be S.Fp (which beats Hayato's) ,O.Striked cancelled back. The only people in the game fast enough to keep up with that are Magneto, Storm and Rogue. (Rogue can do the rushing punches super to get to him.. but other than that she can't keep up.) All OR really needs to do against Hayato is burrowing coil. If you jump plan on eating an OR strike or being crossed up. Dashing isn't safe because of the retractable O.Strike. Hell, OR burrow coil all day! Also, Hayato just has to "s.fp" to beat an Omega Strike. There are abosulely no normals that beat it. But lets suppose that all he needs is his fierce. Well, all OR needs his is crouching jab. OR's jabs are one of the best in the game (except for his standing one) His shorts are pretty good too. Since your in the florida area, maybe you'll want to prove your words to the arcade players down here in orlando. I would love to see what this Hayato is all about. Posted by Pryde on 02:28:2002 01:54 AM: Hm... I forgot about my Dhalsim posts. Dhalsim vs Cable: This is actually a pretty interesting match. People in the past say that Dhalsim should win this match for free, it's actually not that easy, especially if he Cable has AAA, but with the correct back up, Sim can rush down Cable down so bad. Baiting Cable to attack Sim's assist, would most likely be Cable's down fall, but if Cable played smart, he wouldn't. Sim's SJ. RH would stuff most of Cable's attacks. This match goes to Sim. Dhalsim vs Stryder: Hm... I've played a couple of matches with Stryder/Doom. I feel this match could go either way. I feel it's who ever gets the rush down first is the person who wins. Sim's back assist would knock Doom out before his rocks could get started. The difference in this rush down is that, Stryder would need Levels and Sim doesn't need levels. I feel this match is a tie, disagree with if you want, but try rush down with Sim with either Sent-G, Spiral-A, or Storm-A. Dhalsim vs BH: I don't really have much to say about this match. Never really played against another BH with Sim, so I'll post later on this. Dhalsim vs Cyclops: Hm...Cyclops wouldn't be able to do Random RH all day. Still though, I'd think this match would go to Cyclops, but then again, I'll post more later on this match also. Dhalsim vs Spiral: Spiral would need to play smart against Sim, since Sim can attack from long range. Sim would not be trapped by Spiral that easily, I say this match goes to Sim. Posted by shadowcharlie on 02:28:2002 04:01 AM: say, how come there is zero said about capAM? i mean hes pretty solid, at least on charlies lvl. good b&b solid assist. ect. also tooth wiht spiral is most of the time like capcom with anyone, oncehe gets snapend in hes pinned odwn like hell, only thing he can do is sj wall jump calling out birdie wont work well and the only thing he has on rush down is the hcb+p on triang jumps Posted by DeathFromAbove on 02:28:2002 05:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs Stryder: Hm... I've played a couple of matches with Stryder/Doom. I feel this match could go either way. I feel it's who ever gets the rush down first is the person who wins. Sim's back assist would knock Doom out before his rocks could get started. The difference in this rush down is that, Stryder would need Levels and Sim doesn't need levels. I feel this match is a tie, disagree with if you want, but try rush down with Sim with either Sent-G, Spiral-A, or Storm-A. I disagree. Sim v. Strider: Strider wins. C.HP XX teleport on reaction to J/SJ beats all of Sims options out of the air. That just leaves Sims ground game, which is basically limited to dash c.lp->ground chain, or s.hk. Strider should be able to maneuver around these without calling Doom. If/when the assist comes out, you teleport on top of it and drop Doom, then DJ. That builds > 1/2 of a meter any time Sim calls an assist. Strider w/ meter = dead character(s). Posted by Xinith on 02:28:2002 05:40 AM: Well, BshidoHEAT, I frequent Rocky's Replay so on weekends you stand a good chance of seeing me there. I've used my Hayato/Cyke/Sent and Hayato/IM/CapCom teams there with as much success as I can figure out how to acheive against constant top tier comp. Hell, there are even people on this board like UnCauzi and Tr3nt who have seen my Hayato and can vouch that Hayato is not anywhere near as bad as people think he is. I've beaten or fared well agaisnt MANY Orlando players using top tier teams. You just have to play smart with Hayato and out wit your opponet that's all. He's got potential. As for the OR's I've been playing, UnCauzi does a great job of using OR and that's the kind of OR's I fight actually, he's the only OR I ever fight. ---B.j. Posted by FluffyXXL on 02:28:2002 06:00 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs Cable: This is actually a pretty interesting match. People in the past say that Dhalsim should win this match for free, it's actually not that easy, especially if he Cable has AAA, but with the correct back up, Sim can rush down Cable down so bad. Baiting Cable to attack Sim's assist, would most likely be Cable's down fall, but if Cable played smart, he wouldn't. Sim's SJ. RH would stuff most of Cable's attacks. This match goes to Sim. Like, hella people say this, but I have yet to see actual results against Cable. I mean, Mags and Storm rush Cable down with triangle jumps and high priority C.Short, but Sim doesn't have either. He has triangle jumps, but they aren't as effective as Storm's. It just seems to me that Cable with either Sentinel Ground or good AAA will just slowly work on Dhalsim until Sim makes a mistake and gets hit by AHVB. That has been my experience at least. I play Sim and I can't fight Cable for shit, even though he's supposed to win that matchup. quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs Stryder: Hm... I've played a couple of matches with Stryder/Doom. I feel this match could go either way. I feel it's who ever gets the rush down first is the person who wins. Sim's back assist would knock Doom out before his rocks could get started. The difference in this rush down is that, Stryder would need Levels and Sim doesn't need levels. I feel this match is a tie, disagree with if you want, but try rush down with Sim with either Sent-G, Spiral-A, or Storm-A. The problem I see here is that Strider teleports on Sim all day. If Sim tries to fight on the ground, he's going to get boxed in eventually. Strider plays smart and conservative and baits you to call your Projectile assist, he teleports and is right on top of you. Now, assuming he blocked your PA, You still have a slight amount of lag time before you can call it again. Strider gets to start animal kingdom on you. Animal kingdom leads to more PAs and more teleports. I just don't see dhalsim gaining any ground in this fight. It would be better for him to run away and try to make Strider jump into something. That is, unless Strider is packing Commando AAA or Sentinel Ground. And who doesn't pack one of those of you're playing Strider/Doom? quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs BH: I don't really have much to say about this match. Never really played against another BH with Sim, so I'll post later on this. IMO, one button beats BH. Roundhouse. SJ.Roundhouse should be able to take care of SJ demons and D.S.Roundhouse can stop him from doing J.back.Fierce. Once Dhalsim gets in, he just rushes that shit down since there isn't really anything that BH can do but block and try for AAAs. It's a lot like fighting Mags and Storm, but slightly slower. quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs Cyclops: Hm...Cyclops wouldn't be able to do Random RH all day. Still though, I'd think this match would go to Cyclops, but then again, I'll post more later on this match also. I haven't done this one much either, but I would assume S.J.Roundhouse wars would be in Sim's favor, however I don't know if you could try to time a Cyke S.J.Roundhouse to beat it. That would be interesting. quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs Spiral: Spiral would need to play smart against Sim, since Sim can attack from long range. Sim would not be trapped by Spiral that easily, I say this match goes to Sim. I'm not feeling you on this one either. Spiral has plenty of tricks to make Sim SJ, and then spiral teleports and then gets knives. Or Spiral gets full screen and SJs, quickdrops, calls AAA, and gets knives. You start throwing knives at Sim and Sim can't do too much. Especially since most Spirals pack Sentinel Ground, which IMO is the bane of Dhalsim. Lots of knives and Sentinel Ground are not good for Sim, even with his choice of assists. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 02:28:2002 06:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik How is Hayato going to make someone not block everything he throws at them? He has no mixup whatsoever. He's only coming in with a low short or jump fierce. The reason is that he has to mixup game whatever, no projectiles, no good overheads, no quick dashes, no abusable safe-if-blocked specials. He literally has NOTHING to work with except decent range, and since that's his ONLY dope thing, it's easy to stop. Actually, that's not entirely true. Back+HP is the games fastest true overhead attack. Although, I believe it falls into the category of "laggy sword attacks." Additionally, Hayato's ghetto mixup game consists of the following: (1) Make opponent block something. (2) Plasma Combo b+LP,HP,HP (3) Continue holding back and call in a slow moving projectile assist. Uh...basically Sent-Y or nothing. __(a)Opponent Pushblocks, the following HP slash will hit anybody with an "advancing guard" instead of pushblock, or any character with wide sprite. __(b)No pushblock. Abort Plasma combo, tap f+PP. That's an unblockable special throw that combos to super. Of course, this doesn't work on characters with small sprites and true pushblocks. Also, anyone with a quick attack that can be SJ canceled consistently can hit him during the break and be safe from the drones. Personally, I think Hayato sucks ass. I consider him the 2nd worst character in this game. To quote Juggerknott: "He just needs a few good pushblocks." -DFA Posted by Pryde on 02:28:2002 06:14 AM: quote: The problem I see here is that Strider teleports on Sim all day. If Sim tries to fight on the ground, he's going to get boxed in eventually. Strider plays smart and conservative and baits you to call your Projectile assist, he teleports and is right on top of you. Now, assuming he blocked your PA, You still have a slight amount of lag time before you can call it again. Strider gets to start animal kingdom on you. Animal kingdom leads to more PAs and more teleports. I just don't see dhalsim gaining any ground in this fight. It would be better for him to run away and try to make Strider jump into something. That is, unless Strider is packing Commando AAA or Sentinel Ground. And who doesn't pack one of those of you're playing Strider/Doom? FluffyXXL: Actually with Spiral-A, rush down Sim and Spiral-A, there's not much of a lag in there. Swords would connect, followed by some more 1, 2, 3 blocked hits, and then Spiral comes out again, Stryder would jump in the air or teleportm by then Sim is in the air. You should try this rush down tactic out, it's good, believe me, I rushed down Stryder/Doom so bad, it wasn't even funny, but hey, it was an above avg. Stryder/Doom I'll admit, but Stryder needs level to win, Sim doesn't. Sim could just runaway, and if Stryder catches him, he wouldn't have build so much meter and he would have to start building meter again. Sim would also need an AAA, why not Ken AAA or Cammy AAA, they do fairly well against Stryder/Doom, but hey, Fluffy, try it out, believe me, it's a good rush down. Dhalsim/Spiral-A/XXX Posted by m0di4n on 02:28:2002 06:14 AM: I can't really see cyke as top tier. Unless u can do his infinite. Which i think is crazy hard. He's just an awesome assist. But if that makes him top, then someone correct me. Also, gambit is awesome w/ his gamebreaking glitch! If someone is whoopin on me at an arcade, just bust out some snapback cajun strike. Some people actually tried to get him down! Hailstorm, tempest, too funny. Of course its banned at tournys. IM should be top tier. His infinite is too awesome. a good AAA kills sent easily. And you can guard break to his infinite. So many ways!! Posted by Dasrik on 02:28:2002 06:33 AM: Im tired so don't expect much in the way of argument. quote: Originally posted by shadowcharlie say, how come there is zero said about capAM? i mean hes pretty solid, at least on charlies lvl. good b&b solid assist. ect. CapAm never recovered from the MSF anal rapage he got. He's slow and laggy. Two good assists, though. quote: Originally posted by m0di4n I can't really see cyke as top tier. Unless u can do his infinite. Which i think is crazy hard. He's just an awesome assist. But if that makes him top, then someone correct me. Also, gambit is awesome w/ his gamebreaking glitch! If someone is whoopin on me at an arcade, just bust out some snapback cajun strike. Some people actually tried to get him down! Hailstorm, tempest, too funny. Of course its banned at tournys. IM should be top tier. His infinite is too awesome. a good AAA kills sent easily. And you can guard break to his infinite. So many ways!! 1. Cyclops is top tier because he can superjump and hit roundhouse a lot for free most of the time, fire projectiles like no one's business, and deal some chip damage. 2. If you want to risk bodily harm, go ahead and do the Gambit glitch. It's stupid. 3. Iron Man is too slow and his keepaway too restrictive to be top tier. You haven't played good Sentinels. And his infinite is hardly the star attraction. Posted by Yumi Saotome on 02:28:2002 10:53 AM: So, why is Charlie 2nd tier? I'd appreciate some strats and explanations. The only thing I can think of is Charlie/Doom, which can do some interesting things. Charlie's dash is reasonably quick and has good range, so one thing I like to do is dash, c.short, c.foward, c. roundhouse, call Doom, jab sonic boom, dash, c. short, c.foward, c. roundhouse, dash and repeat the entire sequence. Makes for good lockdown, even if they push block. Of course, if for some reason they get hit by c. short, then you have the option of, c.short c.foward XX flash kick super, or c. short, c.foward, c. Roundhouse, call doom, OTG Crossfire Blitz. Which looks cool. Also, Charlie's j. Roundhouse has pretty crazy priority. I don't think Hayato is horrible...he can do some interesting things. Or Hayato can just jump in and die. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:28:2002 12:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by Xinith Well, BshidoHEAT, I frequent Rocky's Replay so on weekends you stand a good chance of seeing me there. I've used my Hayato/Cyke/Sent and Hayato/IM/CapCom teams there with as much success as I can figure out how to acheive against constant top tier comp. Hell, there are even people on this board like UnCauzi and Tr3nt who have seen my Hayato and can vouch that Hayato is not anywhere near as bad as people think he is. I've beaten or fared well agaisnt MANY Orlando players using top tier teams. You just have to play smart with Hayato and out wit your opponet that's all. He's got potential. As for the OR's I've been playing, UnCauzi does a great job of using OR and that's the kind of OR's I fight actually, he's the only OR I ever fight. ---B.j. Good for you, I haven't done well against some Orlando teams. I'VE BEAT THEM, using my OR teams. (of course I've lost some matches, I am not invincable) Even competed in OD2 and made top ten with OR. There are also people on this board who actually play MvC2 seriously (Tr3nt is mainly a CvS player and I haven't seen Uncauzi play in a MvC2 tournament) who will state that will state that Omega Red is can hang with most top tiers. (Mixup, InfamousElement, DaUthaWhitemeat... mostly central florida players) I don't want to sound mean or anything but, I doubt that Uncauzi's OR is as good as mine. Usually, I don't go to Rocky's, but I'll be playing there more often. Posted by raekwon187 on 02:28:2002 04:44 PM: who does cyclops beat? and who does he have his hardest match against on point. Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:28:2002 04:56 PM: Re: Re: MvC2: Top tier and 2nd tier thread quote: Originally posted by BigDave315 Lower 2nd: Tron I think the High 2nd is much more competitive as point characers (meaning 1st or 2nd on a team and can deal with top tier gameplay and assists) than the Lower 2nd. You notice the lower 2nd is alot of assist characters that people have developed good strats for. The High 2nds have either distance games, traps, 1 hit kills, etc. Stuff that the top tier characters have. However, with the lower 2nd, you see very little distance games, lotsa reliance on air combos to do good damage... etc. Based on your list of what defines higher and lower 2nd tier, Tron fits in upper second. She has a good range game consisting of Beacon Bombs, Servbot Launchers, and s.rk rocks. She has high priority, can deal with the top tier decently well (Storm, Magneto, and Cable give her trouble, but otherwise she can hold her own), and chips well. She has a fairly abusable TKed Bonne Strike and a crazy corner combo (12, rk Bonne Strike XX Lunch Rush). Her speedy Bonne Strike and high priority give her a good rushdown game if she has a cover assist (She perfers Sentinel drones). Plus she has the glitched-out, armor-piercing, assist-punishing, high-damage assist. Also, Pryde, I really hate to say this, but Tron's unlimited air-dash is useless. Her AD is slow, making it easy to punish, and curls down, making a max of two possible before hitting the ground. The only way to actually AD more than twice is if she gets popped up with a juggle or launcher. The only real use for Tron's AD is to bait: AD XX j.jp, block, rk Bonne Strike. If you actually want to cover distance quickly in the air, use the Bonne Strike like an AD instead. Posted by ej_333 on 02:28:2002 04:59 PM: i read in a post back there, someone said Guile's flashkick keeps Doom from doing anything in the air. Is he saying that the flashkick goes through Doom's photons, or is it just more of a space filler that discourages Doom from super jumping in the first place? Posted by LighteningStorm on 02:28:2002 05:18 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik LighteningStorm: - Several things wrong with your theory: First of all, Blackheart without assist dies to, like, everybody. Without an AAA to discourage people from dashing under fierce demons and owning BH, he... well... he gets his fierce demons dashed under. Since there's no way Blackheart solo is going to keep anyone full screen unless they superjump (dumb thing to do on BH anyway), he can't do any damage. Amatuer Blackhearts w/o assist dies to everybody, because BH isn't as easy to use as he seems. Now I will concede to the notion that it is possible I have not played any good Captain Commandos, but I have played some fairly good ones, and my BH has won at least 80% of the time. Because like I said, it's a matter of knowing what you can and cannot do against him. I personally think both air demons are a stupid thing to try to do to CapCom, for all the reasons you pointed out. But then again I have a fairly decent BH rushdown! Granted it is no Storm or Magneto Rush... but I can fight close with BH and this is how BH can bean CapCom - also THROWS are a must. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik But for purposes of argument, let's give BH an AAA. You're tossing out the things that average Blackhearts do that Commando can no-brainer stop. But you're making your opponent just as stupid by assuming he's always going to go for Corridor xx Sword. Why waste your super on something that may whiff altogether? BH w/ AAA against CapCom w/ nothing, if that BH doesn't win there is a serious problem with that person's BH skills. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Your use of jab inferno vs. Captain Kick is pretty brilliant (let's hear it for jab inferno users!) - on the other hand, if Commando holds his ground and keeps throwing out Jennety, BH is going to be hard pressed to do Inferno at all anyway. If BH is on the ground and not in close, qcf+rh is pretty much totally safe. As for fierce inferno xx judgement day, it's easy to see judgement day coming and change plans (superjump after you block the inferno). I love the Jab Inferno. I use it quite a bit, it works especially well against those air controllers like Storm and Magneto, as well it baits Juggernauts into trying to head crush and stops that. But for the fp.inferno xx Judgement day and jumping out of it... This can not be done. And only because of the second hit that the inferno does. The inferno can only be dashed out of but obviously due to Judgement Day that's not happening. The only safe jumping that can be done in inferno is the regular jump and if you do that you can either block or do something that will take BH and the Demons out, like typhoon, or AHVB or regular Viper Beam, but CapCom doesn't have anything that can do all of that. I wrote this but now I wonder, and will have to try it. Can CapCom stay put and simply to the Corridor xx Sword and stop everything that way? This could be worth a shot. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik This is just Commando without assist. Give him an assist of his own and things can get ugly. Give him Blackheart assist? BH dies a miserable death. There's very very very little BH can do against Commando/BH, regardless of the help BH carries (outside of maybe B-Cable - CAHVB that shit). Oh yeah, BH has trouble with anybody who has a BH assits. He is his own worse nightmare. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik BTW... Blackheart says "Blackheart rises", not "Anti-Christ". I don't know. I have been told this before but many people also say that he says Anti Christ. And I've listened very closely both at home and arcade even through amplifiers and it sounds like Anti-Christ to me. Also given who he is in the Marvel Universe it wouldn't be too strange that he says Anti Christ. But, much like my sig represents a lot of screwed up things seem to be said on that game. Who knows maybe we're both wrong? Posted by MeelJ on 02:28:2002 05:42 PM: I was searching through old threads, and I saw some guy's post that said Jin had an Infinite in the corner.....Is this true? Posted by Pryde on 02:28:2002 05:43 PM: Well almost everything has it's down side. Tron's airdash isn't complete useless, at least it can travel a decent range, you wouldn't wanna drill across the screen and miss an opportunity to do a combo. Her unlimited airdash has it's uses, but true it's slow. Cyclops main weakness is Cable. He has touch fights against Stryder and Storm. IMO Cammy also, but he beats her. Cyclops beats almost everyone. Posted by raekwon187 on 02:28:2002 05:54 PM: so cyclops only tough match is cable so can he control the air against doom.if he's on point can he control the tempo and outcome of the match? Posted by The_Beast on 02:28:2002 06:37 PM: Lightening Storm, jab inferno isn't baiting against Juggs. Only a scrub will HC. Time it for the 2nd hit to dissipate and BH is dead by the 12th hit of the combo. Juggs w/o assists vs any non toptier character w/o assists=Juggernaut win. Vs top tier characters, it's a 75% chance of win. Posted by Renegade on 02:28:2002 07:16 PM: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Pryde Most of y'all know who are the besic top tiers. The lists below are not top tier order, cuz I'd rather not argue who's higher than who. 2nd tier characters, once again not in any specific order. Juggernaut (Glitch) Cammy Ice Man Ruby Heart Omega Red Iron Man Tron Bonne Marrow (yes i believe she's up there) Dhalsim Psylocke MegaMan Well there are more, but it's all debatable. Well if y'all need any help or strategies with these characters, just post and I'll see what I can do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, I accidentally posted this under my friends name. I would just say Colossus and Silver Samurai have alot going for them. Colussus 70% air combo and super armor (not to mention his anti air assist) is too good. Mine top tier is in 3 parts, high, mid, and low, and then beyond is the others. High Top: Cable, Storm, Sent, Spiral Mid Top: Magneto, Doom, Strider Low Top:Cyclops, IM, BH, Iceman High 2nd "almost there": Dhalsim, OR, Megaman, Juggy (g), Ruby, WM Lower 2nd: Cammy, Tron, Ken, Psy, Commando, Colossus, Marrow, Silver Samurai I think the High 2nd is much more competitive as point characers (meaning 1st or 2nd on a team and can deal with top tier gameplay and assists) than the Lower 2nd. You notice the lower 2nd is alot of assist characters that people have developed good strats for. The High 2nds have either distance games, traps, 1 hit kills, etc. Stuff that the top tier characters have. However, with the lower 2nd, you see very little distance games, lotsa reliance on air combos to do good damage... etc. Marrow and Silver Sam have good assist punishing abilities, but that's about it. Nothing truly spectacular outta this group (cammy lovers proceed hating.... now. I'm sorry but she gets owned by top tier teams with one character + assist. I usually just kill her with doom AAA for free.) But I agree on that lower 2nd there is REALLY fuzzy. Who's to say characters like Felicia, Jin, and Morrigan don't belong in there? I'm not really sure about that. That's just my list. Comments are nice. Also, Tron REALLY doesn't have that much of a distance game. Throwing the Kobuns and the grab kobuns are okay sparingly, but it's not as if Tron is a threat when she's across the screen. Posted by Digicore2001 on 02:28:2002 07:25 PM: This thread is a very good read I must say. After being mauled by MikeZ's semi low-teir team (Mag/Hulk/Jugg) at a recent tourney, I've been wanting to include more low tiers into my teams. And I think I depend on top teir characters too much. What do you people think of Jill? She can fill the screen with stuff (Zombies/Dogs/Birds/Assists) and she has a lot of priority on some of her normals. I've hit people with a j.RH from a half screen. Pretty crazy. Morrigan is a fav of mine as well. Just wish it was esier to combo into her supers. Posted by Pryde on 02:28:2002 08:05 PM: Digicore: I'm glad you enjoy this thread, but as for Jill, she doesn't really have things that people don't expect, in other words, she's predictable. I'm sure most of us on this forum know how powerful Jill is, but if you can block low, then you're pretty much all set against Jill. She has good mix ups, OTG after sweep or the option to call out Zombie to grab you which is real good mix-up, but regardless, she's bottom 2nd tier at best, but most people would rate her 3rd tier. Her projectile on the floor where you call bird, dog, and zombie can easily be voided by SJing over it, she can compete, but she's just to predictable. The Beast: I'm assuming you're Tim, but non top tier characters can fight Juggernaut and it's not always a free win for Juggernaut. Iron Man, War Machine and anyone else who can play a good keep away would beat the shit out of Juggernaut. Raekwon187: Cyclops can't controle the air against Doom, but he does give Doom a tough time for throwing out photons, but Doom stil has SJ.Fierce. Cyclops is a great all around character. MeelJ: Jin does have an infinte in the corner, but it's the taunting infinte and the odds of you landing is that in a real battle is not high at all. If you don't know what I'm talking about try taunting with Jin in the corner and start mashing and the opponent should be above you when this happens. Posted by Remy Saotome on 02:28:2002 08:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by Renegade Also, Tron REALLY doesn't have that much of a distance game. Throwing the Kobuns and the grab kobuns are okay sparingly, but it's not as if Tron is a threat when she's across the screen. Tron must be paired with a slow projectile assist to be played correctly, to cover her laggy ground Bonne Strikes and to throw into her distance mix-up game. With Sentinel Ground covering her, too, that keep-away distance game becomes a lot better. quote: Originally posted by Digicore2000 What do you people think of Jill? She can fill the screen with stuff (Zombies/Dogs/Birds/Assists) and she has a lot of priority on some of her normals. I've hit people with a j.RH from a half screen. Pretty crazy. Jill needs two things to be played well. The first is Dr. Doom AAA. It covers the lag on her dogs/birds/zombies/grenades. The other is that your opponent be bad at Rolling. A lot of good Jill play relys on OTGs and keeping tons of dogs/birds/zombies/grenades on screen. Once you have Doom to help you keep shit on the screen, your goal is to either: 1) Start a combo. Her basic is c.sk, c.fk, c.rk OTG c.jp, launcher (c.fp I think), /\ 1234, fp Charging S.T.A.R.S. XX Hyper Charging S.T.A.R.S. 2) Or try to connect an sk Zombie. Once it grabs them, dash in and do the T:002 super (The one with Nemesis, often called Tyrant). That can be directly comboed into the Rocket Launcher super, which is an easy DHC to something else. Probably the best Jill teams are Jill/Cable/Doom or Storm/Jill/Doom. Personally, she is fun, but not overly good. I just shit around with her a bit on Team Undead: Jill (DASH)/Anakaris (VAR)/Morrigan (AAA). Anyway, because Jill needs Doom and has to rely on her opponent not rolling, she isn't 2nd tier. She can damage if she gets in, but if her opponent rolls... On second thought, though, that's not too bad. Still, there is always the Super-Jump option, too. Jin has another ITC infinite besides the Jin Fire one. He can also do continuous Jin Dynamites as an ITC infinite. Katta wa! Remy Saotome While I'm editing this, anyway: Juggy has trouble with any character that has a good air game. If you can beat IM or WM with Juggy, the IM/WM players suck. Juggy's good against most pixies (Except my Felicia. She's a mean Juggy killer in my hands) and ground-only characters. Posted by The_Beast on 02:28:2002 08:27 PM: No, my name is Chaz. I play Juggs to the extreme baby! Seriously, Iron Man or the likes there of are not an issue. Everyone underestimates the toe grab. Digicore: Morrigan supers lead in....ez, c.lk,c.mk,s.fp,fierce fireball then either her fireball super,dragon punch super, OR you can look good and do her beatup super just like you'd AHVB. The last one is untested but should work. Same combo w/Guile! Posted by LighteningStorm on 02:28:2002 08:54 PM: quote: Originally posted by Remy Saotome Juggy has trouble with any character that has a good air game. If you can beat IM or WM with Juggy, the IM/WM players suck. Juggy's good against most pixies (Except my Felicia. She's a mean Juggy killer in my hands) and ground-only characters. But characters that are not top tier with a good air game can't do anything to Juggernaut who doesn't jump. And I'd like to see that mean Felicia Juggernaut killer. I like Ruby for this same reason. edit: TRUST!! He can beat good IM and WM with Juggs! quote: Originally posted by The_Beast Everyone underestimates the toe grab. I love the toe grab! *awaits everyone to ask "What's the toe grab?"* And Beast... come on... you know nobody just does the inferno and not cancel it into something. So a Juggs that doesn't want to get cheesed would likely try a headcrush. Obviously I have taught you to never try this, as you never fall for it anymore, but when I need to cheese your Juggs this is usually what I do. Posted by Bojack on 02:28:2002 09:51 PM: So, BshidoHeat, you've not really been to Rocky's since OD2? We're up to OD5 now where've yah been? Anyways, yes, Omega Red can hang with Top Tiers. I never said he couldn't. I never said OR isn't good. All I said is that Hayato v OR is not as one sided in OR's favor as you think. Hayato has cards to play in that battle since his j.Hp gives him nearly free jump ins. Especially with assists. Thats all I've been trying to say in this entire thread is that no one gives Hayato enough credit. All people see in Hayato is standard AC's with Guren xx Plasma Feild crap and they don't even realize he has safe and easy and powerfull ground combos at his disposal. Especially if you use his safe kicks instead of his crappy sword moves and then open into groudn combos ending in supers. Ignore Hayato's crap and focus on what he has that's good and it's easy to see that he's at least in the middle of the game. Hell, most of the examples people use to make Hayato look bad also stuffs like 80% of the rest of the characters in the game. Hell, one guy whose name I can't remember said that Hayato dies to Megaman traps. Well, any one who's not top tier tends to die to MegaMan traps too so it's not Hayato's fault. Crap like that that pisses me off. ---B.j. Posted by Devil X on 02:28:2002 10:18 PM: quote: Originally posted by hayato15 doom kills spiral, dhalsim kils storm, cable kills sentinel. no top tier for you what im talking about is these three characters, with any assist, at worst are 4/6 in match ups. spiral with the right assist doesnt getted owned by doom, getting owned is like magneto vs doom or strider vs BH, thats flat out no chance of fighting a winning battle. spiral can definately fight doom even though it requires alot of thought on the spiral players side. same thing with cable vs sentinel, it all depends , of course cable has an advantage if he has like 4 bars but if he only has one or know bar, hes completely owned. sim vs storm? ive never seen this match personally but i couldnt imagine ANYONE owning storm if shes armed with the right assists, shes just too good in the game. maybe you can explain this match up more in depth for me :P Posted by Gen2000 on 02:28:2002 10:21 PM: quote: I was searching through old threads, and I saw some guy's post that said Jin had an Infinite in the corner.....Is this true? Yes, but it isn't as useful as you think... In corner: st.hp, cr.lp, st.hp, cr.lp, repeat Note: you might have to dash in sometimes after the st.hp to keep it going. THe big downfall of this infinite is that it only works on Megaman/Roll/Servbot. I got about 3-4 repeats on the Shotos and other characters their size, but basically it only works fully on Megaman/Roll/Servbot (all cept Megaman, who aren't common characters). The other infinite is clearly his taunt, but that one is just stupid, unless your opponent actually wants to get into it quote: Jin has another ITC infinite besides the Jin Fire one. He can also do continuous Jin Dynamites as an ITC infinite. Say what? I know that he can cancel Saotome Dynamite into another after one finishes, but there is no infinite that I heard of or seen from this. The opponent recovers before they land, so what infinite are you talking about with Dynamite? Also, about Jill, her dogs/zombis/birds and all that all gets kill by most st. hard attacks, there no Strider birds/tigers. I find Jill fun to use once in a while, but she doesn't really have going for her besides easy to connect supers and her Zombie "trap" or whatever you want to call it. If you block low and push block, then Jill is just helpless. cr.hk/lk zombie tick: cr.hk, cancel into LK Zombie The great thing about this is that the zombie cancels the lag of the cr.hk if they block if they get hit, you still have the extra unblockable zombie on screen, just cross over and go on offensive trying to knock the opponent into the zombie (either just attack or pushblock them into it). If they they roll from the cr.hk, they will land into the walking zombie meaning free AC into Rush Super for Jill. The "trap" isn't that effective, but still a good trick with Jill that I didn't see mention. Edit: Sorry, I see that Pryde mentions the cr.hk/lk zombie trick. Posted by mixup on 02:28:2002 10:22 PM: In a game with storm sentinel and magneto, why in hell do you try so hard with hayato? you will NEVER beat any of those characters. Or most of the other characters as well. Hayato has always sucked, i never liked any of the old games he starred in either. I wish he wasn't even in the game Jk play who you want. if he is your hero, use him Posted by mixup on 02:28:2002 10:32 PM: This is really a wierd topic, as most of the time on the game is spent analyzing the top tiers.. hmm.. Dhalsim/Ironman/Hulk/Guile/Charlie/Cammy/Psylocke/Omegared/Megaman/T.bonne/wolverine's/bb.hood I seriously wonder what makes a 2nd tier character..Mvc2 was my first serious vs game so i cannot act like an authority on this.. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 02:28:2002 11:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack So, BshidoHeat, you've not really been to Rocky's since OD2? We're up to OD5 now where've yah been? Anyways, yes, Omega Red can hang with Top Tiers. I never said he couldn't. I never said OR isn't good. All I said is that Hayato v OR is not as one sided in OR's favor as you think. Hayato has cards to play in that battle since his j.Hp gives him nearly free jump ins. Especially with assists. Thats all I've been trying to say in this entire thread is that no one gives Hayato enough credit. All people see in Hayato is standard AC's with Guren xx Plasma Feild crap and they don't even realize he has safe and easy and powerfull ground combos at his disposal. Especially if you use his safe kicks instead of his crappy sword moves and then open into groudn combos ending in supers. Ignore Hayato's crap and focus on what he has that's good and it's easy to see that he's at least in the middle of the game. Hell, most of the examples people use to make Hayato look bad also stuffs like 80% of the rest of the characters in the game. Hell, one guy whose name I can't remember said that Hayato dies to Megaman traps. Well, any one who's not top tier tends to die to MegaMan traps too so it's not Hayato's fault. Crap like that that pisses me off. ---B.j. I know they've been up too OD5, I've posted in the thread. What you've just described is NORMAL RUSH DOWN. Send an assist to control the ground and rush, and hopefully if you miss the projectiles will force the person to block, then you throw them or something. Normal rush down doesn't win anything, if you try to jump in with FP, I'll just jump up with a jab and out prioritize you. And like I've said, OR's jabs are some of the best in the game. Also Hayato's kicks are as slow as his sword attacks. Also, you've missed my point, since Hayato basically sucks against all the top tiers, and Omega Red is good against most top tiers, what the heck can Hayato do other than an assist cross over? Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 03:01:2002 12:53 AM: I dont think mageneto owns hayato....i think what gives hayato problems is CapComs anti air assist.....that like stop everything.....hayato just ahs a hard time getting passed that IMO. Posted by Bojack on 03:01:2002 01:43 AM: Yeah that's what most people think but the thing is is that if I do j.Hp with Hayato at the right time you don't GET the chance to jump up. At that point I've already swung the sword and the sword swing out prioritizes pretty much anything if timed right. No one except maybe Storm out prioritizes the Sword. What usually happens is that Hayato gets hit out of the j.Hp before the sword swings so it LOOKS like it's getting out prioritized but in reality you're just hitting Hayato before it comes out. So, I usually jump in and call Sent. ground or a regular beam assist, if you get hit by the beam I dash in and combo, if you block the beam and j.Hp I just casually jump over you w/ j.Hp, try for some low pokes with c.lk's and then follow up with another j.Hp if you're still blocking until I can call another assit. So basically I just jump around you pinning you with the j.Hp (which even outprioritizes Sent.'s launcher and IM's launcher if timed right) calling assists until you crack. Sure it's basic rushdown but it works pretty well, barring the AAA's that well, face it, screw up EVERY ONE except good Mags/Storm. And well, maybe Hayato's kick aren't that fast but they're not slow. Just cuz he's not blessed with Omega Red's instant c.lk doesn't mean they're slow. His kicks are about the same speed as every one else's, not slow, not fast. They're just kicks. Did I mention that c.lk + Sent. ground., c.lk, s.Hp and maybe an lp Shiden is a great way to punish assits? ---B.j. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 03:01:2002 02:05 AM: i know something i wanna ask i used to hear that hayatos back foward +pp was a like parry if timed right....now what the fuck is up with that???.....ive never done this before......i dunno why someone would say this and people think that he can but for somereason he is supposed to be able to do this....have you ever done it? Posted by BshidoHEAT on 03:01:2002 03:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack Yeah that's what most people think but the thing is is that if I do j.Hp with Hayato at the right time you don't GET the chance to jump up. At that point I've already swung the sword and the sword swing out prioritizes pretty much anything if timed right. No one except maybe Storm out prioritizes the Sword. What usually happens is that Hayato gets hit out of the j.Hp before the sword swings so it LOOKS like it's getting out prioritized but in reality you're just hitting Hayato before it comes out. So, I usually jump in and call Sent. ground or a regular beam assist, if you get hit by the beam I dash in and combo, if you block the beam and j.Hp I just casually jump over you w/ j.Hp, try for some low pokes with c.lk's and then follow up with another j.Hp if you're still blocking until I can call another assit. So basically I just jump around you pinning you with the j.Hp (which even outprioritizes Sent.'s launcher and IM's launcher if timed right) calling assists until you crack. Sure it's basic rushdown but it works pretty well, barring the AAA's that well, face it, screw up EVERY ONE except good Mags/Storm. And well, maybe Hayato's kick aren't that fast but they're not slow. Just cuz he's not blessed with Omega Red's instant c.lk doesn't mean they're slow. His kicks are about the same speed as every one else's, not slow, not fast. They're just kicks. Did I mention that c.lk + Sent. ground., c.lk, s.Hp and maybe an lp Shiden is a great way to punish assits? ---B.j. If I use an attack faster than yours who do you think is going to win? Hayatos fierce will never be on par with a jab of any charater smaller than Hulk. At most you will trade hits. Also, OR's shorts are good, better than Hayato's but also a bunch of other charaters beat Hayato in the c.lk cataglory. (iceman, the shotos, marrow....) And if that's all you have.. J.HP (which probably out prioritizes normal moves, but not many special moves) and sentinel..... that isn't then I am suprise you win against top tier teams (supposing you do win, and just not do well) BTW, what is going to stop me from hitting you while you try to punish my assist? Posted by mixup on 03:01:2002 04:31 AM: Hayato doesn't have trouble with magnus? Do tell... ...seriously, what is it about hayato that makes him able to contend with magneto in ANY WAY? the thing about you hayato lovers is that you are kinda wierd..Magneto rapes half the game for fun... Posted by Bojack on 03:01:2002 04:53 AM: Uhhhh, the assist covers my ass which is what keeps you from punishing me while I hurt your assist. I.e. if you run up to hurt Hayato the Sent. ground or what ever will keep you from doing that. Sorta like the way Mags can easily punish assists by dashing in, c.lk, c.Hp xx Tempest which is usually safe since if they go up to hurt Mags they might get hit by Mags giving him a free air combo, or they can throw out a move at which Mags cancel's c.Hp into sj. and either blocks or continues the punishment in the air. That kind of thing. It's pretty safe against most non top tiers becuase if they DO come up to hurt Hayato the kicks give him plenty of time to cancel into move that prevents harm or stop attacking at all. And Hayato's j.Hp is not slow. I dunno where you get that idea plus, I'm not gonna give you time to j.lp it or any crap like that cuz I doubt you could j.lp it on reaction and I'm not gonna give you much time since I'll be coming down from a jump with the j.Hp pretty much out by the time you're in a position to do anything. Hayato's j.Hp has about the same range and speed as Cable's j.Hk, it's not the fastest or longest reaching attack in the game but no one's exactly gonna be hitting you out of it very much w/o AAA's. I also dunno where you get off saying that Hayato's c.lk is so bad and beaten by so many people. It's not much different than Cable's c.lk or the Shoto's for that matter. It's about on par with most characters in the game. I could also opt for j.Hk's and while it's harder to combo offa j.Hk it comes out even faster than a j.Hp. And has a wider arc. Seriously man, I'll never understand why people say Hayato sucks. Hell, most people don't even realize that his attacks come out as fast as they do. Do a Shiden next time you play and tell me it's slow. Do a s.Hp and tell me it's slow. Do a j.Hp and tell me it's slow. All every one can see is the lag on his moves that prevents you from sitting back and doing the same shit all day. I swear, people think that if a character has no instant startup or lag free moves then they suck. All it takes to have successfull play with Hayato is to save all his laggy moves for combos. Sure you can't just throw crap out at random but doing Hayato's stuff is not impossible. He just takes way more time and patience then most are willing to put in. ---B.j. Posted by Pryde on 03:01:2002 05:04 AM: Bo Jack: Seriously though.....I don't mean to be harsh and I usually would leave the job to Dasrik, but please, stop being ignorant and open up your eyes. Magneto would destroy Hayato for free. I'm fairly open minded, but seriously, Hayato sucks.It doesn't matter if he can punish assist, he can't do it safely, that's the problem. Hell, I know how you feel right now. I used to think Spider-Man was top tier. I would argue with Viscant about this and believe me, I learn to accept that Spider-Man sucked in the game. It doesn't matter if Hayato may beat a few characters here and there. The fact is... he sucks. Fuck that, he sucks and he's fucking boring. Posted by Bojack on 03:01:2002 05:07 AM: Hey, I was never dumb enough to say Hayato could do much against Mags. If anything I've been saying that Hayato pretty much loses to the entire Top Tier. Hell, Mags/Storm are like the prime Hayato killers. He has like nothing on them which sorta sucks for us "Hayato Lovers". And I also realize that Hayato is not the best. I know and have stated many times that he's not top tier and I haven't even really said he's upper tier, maybe in a joking sense. I just KNOW from experience that there is no way in hell a smartly played Hayato is bottom tier. He just does too well against characters like Jill, or Felicia or regular Zangeif or Roll or Servbot or Shuma or CapAm or SonSon or Amingo to be on the bottom. That's all I've been trying to say for the past however many posts. If I had to rank the game Hayato would be like 10th-15th from the bottom. He's nowhere near the bottom. My results from experience tell me this. ---B.j. P.s. the stuff I was saying about Mags in my last post was an example using Mags. It had nothing to do with a Hayato/Mags fight or any other Mgas fight period. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 03:01:2002 05:19 AM: super jump alot against magneto......lots of jumping hps try somehow to make him stay on the ground then while your calling out assists(which is usaly blackheart and sentinel for me) try to keep him on the ground and try cross him up alot.....since you can get the air advantage in the sence that your coming down while hes coming up you should be able to beat him jumping hp he blocks lands into assists....all you need is one combo to win with hayato really....say you pressure with the plasma combo and he forgets to block the hit low......BAM FUCK YOU BIATCH!!(lol...sigh im bored) you go into combo hurts alot and even if it doesnt kill him the qcf+kk links nicely into sentinels little qcf+kk yadda yadda. Also even if they do block the low kick in the plasma combo you can annoy them with a back hp plasma combo right after it...or go back to jumping right out of the kick..... i know he can do assits and to and yeah and yeah..and yeah that to ........ Posted by FluffyXXL on 03:01:2002 05:27 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Cyclops main weakness is Cable. He has touch fights against Stryder and Storm. IMO Cammy also, but he beats her. Cyclops beats almost everyone. Good god, someone else finally realizes it! Anyway, I would say Cyke has a pretty good fight against Storm. Cyke has a lot of tools to use against Storm. if she tries hail, S.Fierce beats it. If she tries to rushdown, OC.Roundhouse into infinite that shit (that beats a lot of that low altitude triangle jumps, especially the ones that aren't meant to be blocked) and when that doesn't work, S.Roundhouse will usually. Also, you have pretty much free reign to build meter with S.J.Roundhouse and MOB whenever you have range and meter. IMO, he looses to Strider, spiral, Magneto, and Cable. I'm not sure aobut Doom, and I know he beats Storm, Sentinel, and a lot of characters below him. Posted by mixup on 03:01:2002 05:48 AM: Jill Vs hayato, this was just insulting, i am sorry, jill is a killer compared to him in this fight, do i really have to list all of the reasons? just nod your head and agree please . Posted by Pryde on 03:01:2002 06:06 AM: Look Bo Jack: I didn't mean to be an ass in the last post, I understand how you feel about Hayato. I'll admit, I don't play Hayato seriously and no one down here in Boston touches him, unless they're beginners. Maybe you have some stuff we haven't seen, but theoritically speaking. Hayato vs Captain America: I'm sorry to say, but I play Captian America and I know CapAm would win this match hands down. He has cross over, long range attacks, projectile, and his j.fierce will out prioritize Hayato's j.fierce. Hayato vs SonSon: Sorry to say again, but Son Son will win this match. SonSon can air dash and come down with a variety of attacfs, preferably j.fierce. She has one frame recovery uppercut which makes her that top notch, she has projectile, and she has cross over (crawl under opponent). She just has more artilery to fight against Hayato, I'm also a Son Son player. Hayato vs Shuma Gorath: Hm... Hayato can't jump in against Shuma, cuz of Shuma's c.rh, which is a good AA. Shuma can chip Hayato and he has a level 3 grab, which is easier to pull of than Hayato's lvl 3 super. I say this match goes to Shuma. Hayato vs Amingo: Have you ever been rush down by Amingo? I'm serious, he's like a fat fucking version of Magneto. His rush down is good, I also say he would beat Hayato, sorry man, but Hayato can't stop Amingo from rushing down. Hayato vs Jill: Jill will also win this match hands down, cuz the fact she can control the space around her. Hayato won't be able to get in easily against her and if he does, Jill's attacks have hella priority. Hayato vs Felicia: Chip would so be a factor in this match, I can't anazlyze this match since I haven't played Felicia. FluffyXXL: Yes..... I realize, I was being stubborn, at least I'm open minded. =Þ Oh yeah, thanks for helping me out on this thread Dasrik:you too man, thanks for posting your thoughts, I respect your opinion, but don't be toooooo stubborn now and keep up the good work. We're here to help you out, so if y'all have any more questions, just ask. Posted by FluffyXXL on 03:01:2002 06:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde FluffyXXL: Yes..... I realize, I was being stubborn, at least I'm open minded. =Þ Oh yeah, thanks for helping me out on this thread No problem. I've been waiting for a thread like this to pop up. Finally it has. Now, explain to me that rushdown dhalsim stuff again. Posted by raekwon187 on 03:01:2002 08:00 AM: how does cyke beat doom Posted by Bojack on 03:01:2002 08:00 AM: As for CapAm, well, maybe that match wouldn't be as good for Hayato as I thought since I forgot about his Cartwheel. And his low lag Hyper Charging Star and his insane j.Hp, which is oddly similar to Hayato's so I'm not sure who's j.Hp would win out on aerial confrontations. Yes, Son Son has all that and a bag of chips provided Hayato never ever moves. Since I usually spend most of my Hayato time running around trying to combo you and since I always back Hayato up aith good AAA i.e. Cyke/CapCom it's not a good idea to risk SonSon's Serengeti DragonPunch deal. Plus, like I said, her ground crawl and her slow obvious air dash don't work well if her opponet moves. She's also slower than Hayato on the ground and her monkey projectile's not really that good. You can try Sonic Boom sandwiches with it but I've never seen any one have success with it but I am planning on starting a decent SonSon team just cuz no one else plays her/him round my Arcade. So maybe I can figure out how to make it work. Shuma can chip Hayato provided he gets one step ahead of Hayato and keeps him on the ground. Other wise it's possible for Hayato to punish predictable Mystic Smashes, it's also possible to c.lk mystic smashes too I think (may be mistaken I never have to fight Shuma). Shuma's c.Hk also won't beat out Hayato j.Hp if Hayato times it right. It would probably be an even match but Hayato has stonger combos than Shuma and combos that are easier to land and Hayato's a little faster and he has a command throw that set's up for a 45-55% super so I say the match goes to Hayato unless Shuma's paired with Spiral for insane meter. Amingo has some stregths but AAA's destroy his rushdown. That's why Amingo IMO is low on the list and since I never use Hayato w/o good AAA it's unlikely Amingo will ever get close for long w/o taking heavy damage. Unless you know of some other way to rush with Amingo than TK Oninon Drills or j.Hp. But I do like Amingo, he's a cool character. I'll give ya that one. A fat little Cactus is crazier than Hayato which I think is really cool. Jill couldn't keep out Hayato as easy as you think. Shiden can dash in and hit Jill, kill what ever zombie shit she just called, and then leave her open for a combo afterward if she relies on zombie shit. She can try for some slow as Zombie Sonic Boom Sandwich crap but I doubt it's gonna happen since Hayato's dash and slash would probably let him slide under a rushing Jill and kill her zombie and with Sent. ground (THE BEST ASSIST FOR HAYATO IMO) would allow him to do this with near total safety. Once Jill realizes she has to go in and attack it's all gonna be over. I think Hayato can Shiden a blocked Slide so that leaves Jill with pretty much nothing against Hayato unless she has some dope assists to back her ass up. That's the way I see a Hayato/Jill match shape up. It could go either way but it's gonna be whoever lands the hits first and since Jill and Hayato both operate at about the same mobility I don't see Jill having any real advantage. As for a Felicia match, well, I don't think she has anything to help her stop a j.Hp. Also, what does she have that chips? A Super from Felicia would get a Shiden xx Rasetsu Zan combo real quick. Her Help Me super is her most powerfull super and easy as hell to avoid too unless she's got some whackass set up like Rogue Throw type. That means that Felicia has to go in and combo and well, I've never found her priorities anything to write home about so it'd probably be all up to who got the attack in first and even then Hayato has stronger Ground combos if I'm not mistaken so I still say this isn't too hard of a fight for Hayato. Anyways, good to know you don't think I'm some kinda shchmuck or something. I just like Hayato. I think he's pretty good that's all. Hell, I even like to play Roll/Cable/Cyke in serious play too. I also use Servbot/Strider/Doom. I'm a stickler for getting decent results with the worst of characters by pairing them up with mean ass stuff. Like Hayato/Cyke/Sent. ^_^ That's all I have for now. ---B.j. Posted by Dr Shaboogen on 03:01:2002 12:01 PM: Nothing much to contribute to this thread except two things which are rather useless... 1) Any fan of Winnie Cooper (aka Danica McKellar) is the man 2) Hayato can do crazy damage off tag-ins with stuff like tag in, d.fierce, sj.jab, sj.short, sj.jab XX dp-fierce XX Plasma Field, otg d.short, s.jab XX B.Hayato. There are setups for tag ins, the easiest being something like Strider Ouroburos or something. Totally useless in real gameplay, but perhaps if you could find a way to get him in, do his damage then run for the hills b4 he gets his ass raped, maybe he'd be better? And a question about Strider... I'm a bit new to MvC2 so could somebody please either post notation for the Strider/Doom trap or point me to a place that has it, that would be great. Also, after looking at this trap (rather being a victim of it) is it possible to pull off this trap or perhaps a bastardised version of it with any other multi hit style assist like Silver Samurai slashes or Spiral 6 punches? I was once told "Strider doesn't exist in MvC2, only Strider/Doom does, they are one character". Just looking to see if this is true cya D.S Posted by Dasrik on 03:01:2002 12:51 PM: quote: Originally posted by LighteningStorm Amatuer Blackhearts w/o assist dies to everybody, because BH isn't as easy to use as he seems. Now I will concede to the notion that it is possible I have not played any good Captain Commandos, but I have played some fairly good ones, and my BH has won at least 80% of the time. Because like I said, it's a matter of knowing what you can and cannot do against him. I personally think both air demons are a stupid thing to try to do to CapCom, for all the reasons you pointed out. But then again I have a fairly decent BH rushdown! Granted it is no Storm or Magneto Rush... but I can fight close with BH and this is how BH can bean CapCom - also THROWS are a must. I'm hardly an amateur Blackheart, and I can tell you that if you have only Blackheart left, you might as well walk away. His only hope is to sucker the opponent into superjumping so he can bring them down with an Inferno and chip - and against anyone with an air dash, he can't even do that. BH can do NO damage on his own unless he connects a launcher (and how likely is that)? As for BH rushdown, the only thing that remotely resembles rushdown is jumping forward with fierce while calling a projectile assist. It's good for pressure, but unless you force your opponent to fuck up royally, it's not going to win you the fight... quote: BH w/ AAA against CapCom w/ nothing, if that BH doesn't win there is a serious problem with that person's BH skills. That's what I'm arguing. Commando has an easier time with Blackheart. quote: I love the Jab Inferno. I use it quite a bit, it works especially well against those air controllers like Storm and Magneto, as well it baits Juggernauts into trying to head crush and stops that. My "Dope trick" on Magnetos and Storms is to either hop back with fierce or call ground type Sentinel , and if they superjump and airdash forward to try to evade, jab inferno. quote: But for the fp.inferno xx Judgement day and jumping out of it... This can not be done. And only because of the second hit that the inferno does. The inferno can only be dashed out of but obviously due to Judgement Day that's not happening. The only safe jumping that can be done in inferno is the regular jump and if you do that you can either block or do something that will take BH and the Demons out, like typhoon, or AHVB or regular Viper Beam, but CapCom doesn't have anything that can do all of that. I'm not sure since I haven't tested, but if you're on the ground when you block Inferno, the two hits hit you right away. The second hit of the Inferno is one that rises from the bottom to the top (and is how people with airdashes can get away if they airblock - push and airdash to evade the second hit). So you SHOULD be able to jump out if BH is fullscreen. quote: Oh yeah, BH has trouble with anybody who has a BH assits. He is his own worse nightmare. On most characters, BH can deal to a certain extent with BH assists by airdashing forward. If you do this on Commando, you eat a corridor into sword. quote: I don't know. I have been told this before but many people also say that he says Anti Christ. And I've listened very closely both at home and arcade even through amplifiers and it sounds like Anti-Christ to me. Also given who he is in the Marvel Universe it wouldn't be too strange that he says Anti Christ. But, much like my sig represents a lot of screwed up things seem to be said on that game. Who knows maybe we're both wrong? For a long time I thought he said "Anti-Christ" too. When I got Marvel Super Heroes for my PlayStation, though, I noticed an extra syllable at the end. I listened real close, and indeed... he says "Blackheart rises". I'm 100% certain. This is the best MvC2 thread ever. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 03:01:2002 12:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack Uhhhh, the assist covers my ass which is what keeps you from punishing me while I hurt your assist. ---B.j. I don't have much time, but.. did you know that if timed right a burrowing coil will take out ALL the sentinel drones? Including that, a burrowing coil can stop your attack on my assist? And I can follow a cross screne burrowing coil with a horizontial O.strike? But lets see all the ways that anyone can stop punishing assist... A Viper Beam A hoizontial typhoon A TK horizontial ice beam A TK shoulder cannon/unibeam Ruby Hearts AAA A beam super move etc.... Posted by Remy Saotome on 03:01:2002 03:07 PM: quote: Originally posted by Gen2000 Say what? I know that he can cancel Saotome Dynamite into another after one finishes, but there is no infinite that I heard of or seen from this. The opponent recovers before they land, so what infinite are you talking about with Dynamite? Yeah, I've done it a few times against Sentinel players. Of course, most of the Sent players in this area are crap, but anyway... I've only gotten it on Sent, too, no other characters. Oh, what I did was get them in the corner, then do jp Jin Dynamite, Super-Jump cancel and do j.rk, then land and do another jp Jin Dynamite. quote: Originally posted by Gen2000 Also, about Jill, her dogs/zombis/birds and all that all gets kill by most st. hard attacks, there no Strider birds/tigers. The rk Zombie is on fire, and any bodily attack, even standing hard ones, cause the opponent to be hurt, too. But the point isn't to get the animals themselves to connect most of the time. Just to use Doom rocks and dogs/birds/zombies to fill the screen with shit and just wreak general havoc, giving you some breathing space to do whatever. Posted by LighteningStorm on 03:01:2002 03:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik I'm hardly an amateur Blackheart, and I can tell you that if you have only Blackheart left, you might as well walk away. You may not be an amatuer BH but I'm telling you BH CAN fight by himself, and the other character doesn't need to SJ for the win to happen. BH can't beat certain top tiers alone, but he most surely can beat Captain Commando, and most other lower tiers. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik As for BH rushdown, the only thing that remotely resembles rushdown is jumping forward with fierce while calling a projectile assist. It's good for pressure, but unless you force your opponent to fuck up royally, it's not going to win you the fight... This is the typical problem with people who try to rush with BH. Fierce anything is not the first move to do, it's the last. One should jump in with weak punches or kicks (I prefer the kick because it is quicker and has better priority). Then do as much as BH can do with a medium or two. If they get hit, do ground S.RH xx HOD. if you're quick enough after the S.RH while they're bouncing across the screen Inferno xx HOD. If they don't get hit, instead of S.RH do J.RH toward them land and do the repeated weak and medium punches and kicks. This is obviously not a trap, and can be gotten out of but has good pressuring ability and more specifically the Corridor is too slow to stop it. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik I'm not sure since I haven't tested, but if you're on the ground when you block Inferno, the two hits hit you right away. The second hit of the Inferno is one that rises from the bottom to the top (and is how people with airdashes can get away if they airblock - push and airdash to evade the second hit). So you SHOULD be able to jump out if BH is fullscreen. Because BH is my and The_Beast's primary character for game play and we play each other all the time, I have tested all of what I'm saying. And you cannot jump out of it. Trying to jump will result in you being caught by the second hit. The second hit does go from bottom to top, but not from the floor to ceiling. It starts at regular jump level and goes up from there. This is why Servbot often doesn't get hit by both hits of the Inferno even when he gets hit by the first part of it. Because he and Sentinel don't get knocked as high, Sentinel gets hit by it because he is so big. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik For a long time I thought he said "Anti-Christ" too. When I got Marvel Super Heroes for my PlayStation, though, I noticed an extra syllable at the end. I listened real close, and indeed... he says "Blackheart rises". I'm 100% certain. I don't doubt he said it in MSH, but that extra syllable is not in this game. quote: Originally posted by Dasrik This is the best MvC2 thread ever. Yes it IS! Posted by Remy Saotome on 03:01:2002 03:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Hayato vs SonSon: Sorry to say again, but Son Son will win this match. SonSon can air dash and come down with a variety of attacfs, preferably j.fierce. She has one frame recovery uppercut which makes her that top notch, she has projectile, and she has cross over (crawl under opponent). She just has more artilery to fight against Hayato, I'm also a Son Son player. Hayato vs Felicia: Chip would so be a factor in this match, I can't anazlyze this match since I haven't played Felicia. SonSon will cross-up the shit out of Hayato. She is way faster with her moves and Wall Climb + cover assist XX Flying Kick is gonna screw Hayato. So's the XX j.jp -> Staff Spin. Plus she has porjectiles, a high priority command grab, and the Staff Uppercut XX Staff Crush and can cancel the Monkey Kiss into POW!. Plus the Ape super is gonna chip like a bitch and can be done safely against Hayato due to his lack of speed and a projectile. I play a little SonSon, too. Love the way you can easily GB with her AAA assist. Felicia is my woman, though. She should always have Tron Projectile assist, and I usually use either Ruby Heart or Sentinel in the final slot. Felicia is a Hell of a meter builder (Close to MM/OR level). Once she gets three meters, all you have to do is get in and 1234+Tron, Please Help Me! XX King Kobun. From there, with my teams, either do Mille Fantome and let them block for the chipping or do Hyper Sentinel Force. In either case, that's damn close to 100% on a normal defense character, ~80% on high defense. Hayato's almost dead already. But, even staying away from DHCs, Felicia is also a lag abuser, and she can Litterbox Kick XX Hyper Litterbox Kick all the lag on Hayato's normals. Also, she can do Rolling Buckler XX Neko Uppercut to beat out the j.fp, simultaneously calling Ruby to block the drones from Hayato's assist, or Sentinel to absorb them. Considering that I always have her with Tron, she's going to combo into that as much as possible, too. Hayato doesn't have a prayer. LoL. Amingo is a big, fat, spiny Mags in the right hands. He would definitely out-rush Hayato. Also, since you're including assist for Hayato, Bojack, Jill should always pack Dr. Doom with her, and rocks are going to beat Shinden. Also, I don't think that Shinden beats the flaming rk Zombies, either. And Jill has stronger comboes and better Supers. She can link the T:002 off of an sk Zombie, and directly into Rocket Launcher, and RL is a free DHC. Katta wa! Remy Saotome Posted by Edma on 03:01:2002 03:51 PM: People who I think that are worse then Hayato: Amingo, Sabretooth, Spider-Man, Jin, Hulk, Chun Li Oh yeah, Servbot, Roll and Dan. But actually I don't know too much about Dan. I suppose he's not that bad since he's got instant supers and air manuverability and does a lot of damage. So never mind. Maybe not Dan. I didn't say Zangief cause he actually can hold his own/is good against someone who's name is not Cable/AA, Doom, Spiral or Storm. (i.e. fill screen with crap and/or run forever) If I think of anymore crappier characters, I'll put em up. Anyway, the above people have some combination of the following qualities that make them suck. Can't do damage, can't get in, no air manuverability, lack of screen filling projectiles, crummy assists, crummy supers(come out too slow, don't do enough damage, don't fill the screen, whatever), too big/slow. Is that it? There's probably more then that if I could think of some. Hayato CAN do the following: Big damage combo with DHC into next character DHC someone in safely with his QCF+KK Quick DHC out with air super Good attack strings starting with Back + FP that can't really be pushblocked effectively and can be backed with assists (i.e. Sent, Doom, whoever) to reset and continue QCF punch backed with assist is quick way to die but also a relatively safe way to get across the screen in a hurry. Has some advantages over just wave dashing over. Special grab allows followup. Kinda impossible to land but hey, he's got it. Plus jump RK owns. SJ around and throw out RK's for meter. Whee. Qcf+punch assist is really good. No one is saying he's top tier but he sure as hell isn't useless. He's on par with Cap A., Shuma, and lots of other people. Any Hayato discussion I gotta get on. Cause Jay is HELLUVA stupid. Easy ways to make Hayato better: Put in normal jump state after jumping down+RK Make his plasma chains do chip damage Give him a gun. LOL. Confession of the week: I used to think Hayato owned Magneto. Cause of his Back + FP. Even more LOL. Posted by Remy Saotome on 03:01:2002 03:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by Edma Anyway, the above people have some combination of the following qualities that make them suck. Can't do damage, can't get in, no air manuverability, lack of screen filling projectiles, crummy assists, crummy supers(come out too slow, don't do enough damage, don't fill the screen, whatever), too big/slow. Is that it? There's probably more then that if I could think of some. Excuse me, but Hayato fits into almost everything listed above. He can't get in, he has no air manuverability, he has no projectile, he has crappy assists, and his supers aren't safe due to ending lag. quote: Originally posted by Edma Hayato CAN do the following: Big damage combo with DHC into next character What character can't do that? (Besides Dan) Oh, well! What do you expect from someone who said Dan and Zangief aren't bad and that Jin, Hulk, and Chun-Li would die to Hayato? Posted by Edma on 03:01:2002 04:18 PM: Ok, so here's what I listed: Can't do damage - Can Can't get in - That's why I listed way's to get in. The plasma chains starting with back fp are really effective with this especially considering you can call assists and cancel into moves during them. No air manuverability - True, probably his biggest downfall. However the main thing is that he has a quick air super, which allows DHC's. So for instance, once Hulk or Jin super jumps, the are totally commited and can't change the trajectory of their jump. Plus they don't go very far even when they super jump. At least Hayato has an air super and down RK. Lack of screen filling projectiles - True, also a big downfall Crummy assists - Not true, qcf + punch assist is really good. Good by itself as well as you can counter into it and go into super against a lot of ground attacks. Crummy supers(come out too slow, don't do enough damage, don't fill the screen, whatever) - Somewhat true. His supers aren't something you can just throw out because of the lag. However they are super easy to combo and do big damage. Too big/slow - He's small. And he's definetly not slow. And a lot of characters can't do big damage with DHC possiblities or hae a hard time doing it. That's why I listed someone like Spiderman and Chun Li. They have air manuverability but really can't do anything unless they have a really, really clean shot at it. And their supers are definetly not safe if they mess up. I'm pretty sure Dan can though. Something simple like c. sk into uppercut super or whatever. If you guys want to do character specific stuff I'm more then willing to go for it. Like why I think Amingo sucks or whatever. But generally I like to just back up Hayato whenever Jay says he sucks which he always does. Posted by Pryde on 03:01:2002 05:04 PM: People, read the topic, Hayato is not top tier nor is he second tier, and he isn't even in 3rd tier. Ok....I can't believe this thread has turned into another Hayato thread. *sigh* OK, Hayato has no air mobilty, we all have established that. Hayato needs to fight up close. Wit Spider-Man and Chun-Li, they can dash or jump in with a variety of attacks, where Spidey can jump in with 1, 2, 3, 4, which is a good mix up. Hayato has just really one button to jump in. If Hayato jumps in, Spidey's s.RH has good priority and don't give me that if he times his j.fierce right he would beat it, cuz I'll dash under his ass and launch him. Chun-Li has triple jump which is a good mix-up, I'll just triple jump and call out assist and you'lll never see it coming, cuz I'll call assist behind ur ass. Chun-Li has a fairly good rush down, she's just weak. Her jump ins are real good. She has projectile, although it's not all that great. She has good over head. I think her air superiority will give her the advantage in this match. Ok, let's move on, I don't wanna talk about Hayato anymore. Posted by FluffyXXL on 03:01:2002 06:54 PM: Re: Blackheart vs Commando You people act like no one else on earth knows how to play Blackheart. I mean, it's not like some of us haven't been playing him for the last two years or anything. Anyway, like Dasrik said, Blackheart looses to Commando. Period. With assist. Without assist. With meter. Without meter. Period. To all of you out there that think we (me and Dasrik) don't know how to play Blackheart correctly, I say that you all don't know how to play Commando correctly. Yes, you can try to Corridor everything Blackheart does. However, I wouldn't recommend that. A well placed Corridor can do some damage and make Blackheart a little paranoid about doing some things. Misuse of Corridor means if Blackheart ever blocks close to you, you might actually eat a combo. It still doesn't matter, cuz Commando's main weapons against BH are Ginsu, Mack the Knife and J.Roundhouse. If you get close, Ginsu. BH can't really respond at all to that. Block or get hit. If he pushblocks, dash and jump-in Roundhouse. Once again, BH can't stop you from doing that. Eventually, Commando can get a S.Jab or C.Short in and can kick throw you or something like jump-in nothing and kick throw. As you come down, Mack the Knife makes you block. Then, you're back to him jumping at you again. If Blackheart ever tries to do J.Back.Fierce, then all you need to do is wave dash and S.Fierce. I don't even think you'd need to wave dash in most instances. There are other things to consider, like what do you do if BH SJs, but in all reality, BH can't do any damage from up there, so there's really no point discussing it. You can easily sword him if he makes a mistake or just SJ up yourself and do nothing but try to get close to him. Basically, BH needs to chip with HOD in order to do damage, cuz Commando doesn't open himself up to being hit by jump-ins (which is the only way for BH do damage commando) cuz of Ginsu and Mack the Knife and C.Short -> C.Forward won't combo into anything and C.SHort -> S.Roundhouse only combos when close. This match-up is not very exciting to watch at all, mostly because you don't ever do enough damage from either side to kill the opponent, so it becomes a time-out match-up. That's good for Commando IMO whose goal is to make Blackheart block and then throw him, whereas Blackheart is praying to have meter and get open distance (which he can't get) on Commando to do Inferno xx HOD. BTW, if anyone wants to continue the "Hayato isn't garbage" argument, go here. Posted by TS on 03:01:2002 08:02 PM: Re: Re: Blackheart vs Commando Is it just me, or is the only reason MegaMan's Exp assist and his projectile assist the counter? Posted by LighteningStorm on 03:01:2002 08:16 PM: Re: Re: Blackheart vs Commando quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL You people act like no one else on earth knows how to play Blackheart ...... To all of you out there that think we (me and Dasrik) don't know how to play Blackheart correctly, I say that you all don't know how to play Commando correctly ..... This match-up is not very exciting to watch at all, mostly because you don't ever do enough damage from either side to kill the opponent, so it becomes a time-out match-up..... At this point we should agree to disagree. I wouldn't want this to turn into a Blackheart argument like the Hayato one. And I said before it is quite possible that we have simply never played truly good Captain Commandos. But I genuinely fail to see CapComs advantages over BH over all. I do agree that it is not an easy fight for either and is one boring ass match to watch much like two Dooms fighting each other. But I still think that BH would win more often than not. Posted by Pryde on 03:01:2002 08:42 PM: I would like to say before this arguement ends, that I agree with Fluffy and Dasrik. It's not favorism, cuz I know them, but seems more logical that CapCom would win. Think about it, BH can't jump RH as he please. His best option is to jump in with lk, mk, but he can't follow up with anything else, unless he has an assist to back him up. If BH stays on the ground, he can't chip and that's where he loses the battle, but if BH had an assit like Cyke or Capcom, then it would be a different story. Posted by DoomsdayKen on 03:01:2002 09:38 PM: I can't believe that I saw someone say that Hulk loses to Hayato. Thats insane. And what the fuck is up with this J. FP beating everything with the right timing. Thats garbage, I could say that with about every attack in the game. And I personally would be a very happy man to see a jumping Hayato especially against Hulk. Can anybody say air throw! Geez. I used the think Hayato was a good character, that was until people started to block. Posted by Yumi Saotome on 03:01:2002 09:41 PM: Yes, lets get away from Hayato. Talk about Charlie! Other than my previous reply, explain to me why Charlie is 2nd tier and what strats go with him? Posted by LighteningStorm on 03:01:2002 10:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by Yumi Saotome Yes, lets get away from Hayato. Talk about Charlie! Other than my previous reply, explain to me why Charlie is 2nd tier and what strats go with him? Now there's a good topic. I like Charlie somewhat myself, and have gotten him to do some crazy things, but I'd like more info on him too. Posted by Dasrik on 03:01:2002 11:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by LighteningStorm This is the typical problem with people who try to rush with BH. Fierce anything is not the first move to do, it's the last. One should jump in with weak punches or kicks (I prefer the kick because it is quicker and has better priority). Then do as much as BH can do with a medium or two. If they get hit, do ground S.RH xx HOD. if you're quick enough after the S.RH while they're bouncing across the screen Inferno xx HOD. If they don't get hit, instead of S.RH do J.RH toward them land and do the repeated weak and medium punches and kicks. This is obviously not a trap, and can be gotten out of but has good pressuring ability and more specifically the Corridor is too slow to stop it. It's not the best idea to jump in with weak attacks because hella people can jab DP that shit and there isn't squat that Blackheart solo can do about it. As for S.RH... no. I used to think this was a good tactic until I figured out that you had to be in smell-your-breath range for the whole thing to connect AND it's hella easy to mash out. quote: I don't doubt he said it in MSH, but that extra syllable is not in this game. Yes it is, I just listened for it now on my DC copy Anyway... Edma: The point is, Hayato has only ONE form of attack (two, if you want to stretch it) since he doesn't have a mixup game. What are you going to mix up with? That overhead? Like...almost ANY character can run away from him and effectively shut him down. P.S. Even at his best, Hayato still gets owned by Jin, Spidey, Chun and Hulk. My bro can win with those four guys. He can't win with Hayato. Posted by eKiN on 03:01:2002 11:20 PM: yeah, Dasrik's right, it's "Blackheart rises". Posted by Gen2000 on 03:02:2002 12:02 AM: Wow, this thread grew kinda fast since yesterday, anyways, I saw Charile mentioned just thought I throw some two cents on him (and Guile).. IMO, Guile/Charlie are almost the same case as Iron Man/War Machine. Charlie does a few points more damage than Guile on specials and supers than Guile. His Sonic Boom is slower and higher. The slower part is a great pro, but the higher part sometimes is not as most of the smaller characters can duck straight under it. Charlie has a better mix-up game than Guile cause he has something that Guile doesn't, an overhead. Even though Guile has the same move (b+hk), his isn't an overhead (I don't why, guess Capcom liked Charlie more) and his HK Throw is more better for tick throws (when near or in the corner). After the HK Throw in the corner, its free AC or flashkick super for Charlie. Other than that though, I wouldn't say one is better than the other. Guile has the Air Flash Kick which acts like a bootleg double jump, so he can bust some wannabe Cyclops type battering (sj.hk, sj.hk, AFK, sj.hk, sj.hk). Also, some people like Charile cause of the Crossfire Blitz (which is his best counter attack), but Guile can have the same move if you learn the TK his version on the ground, it does the best damage of all his supers and comes out kinda fast which gives him a good counter on the ground as well. Both Guile and Charlie's Flashkick supers have instant start-up, so that's a plus for both of them. Charlie's Flashkick Super seems to "drops" the opponent at the worst times though during it, I trust Guile's more, heh. Charlie's Sonic Break shouldn't even be used unless you're sure the opponent will be locked down by it, the start-up time is very bad, but he recovers while all the Sonic Booms are on the screen so he can follow them up or whatever. Pushblocking all those Sonic Booms isn't always a good idea, cause you will PB one, then eat another which leads into the rest of them comboing. About Charlie's rushdown, even though its more like pressure. Charlie should have some ground covering type assist backing him up doing his rushdown (Sent Ground, Storm's Projectile, Spiral Projectile, IM's Projectile maybe, or Doom's AAA). This way, if you connect an overhead, you can follow it up with more attacks. (Storm and Doom's assist would be more helpful as it stops some AAAs that would try to counter you besides the invincible ones). If you tick throw into a his HK throw and are almost in the corner, you can follow the throw up with st.lp, Somersault Justice, it will all connect since Charlie will end up in the corner by the end of the super. Always try to kept a lp Sonic Boom out as this just adds more crap on the screen as Charlie do his thing. If you get push blocked, no worry, just continue, that's what the Sonic Boom there for, to annoy. Anytime you connect a hard attack, go for the Crossfire Blitz. Average rushdown at best. IMO, I think Guile is more of a battery than Charlie and that Charlie can actually put up some pressure up close against lower tiers. Second tier? Maybe. He brings a good AAA to teams so that should put him up there some (same with Guile too). Plus Charlie looks cooler than Guile anyways. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 03:02:2002 02:40 AM: I think Guile is superior to Charlie. Air flash kick just craps all over people who try to build meter by SJing with hard attacks (Cyclops, Storm, etc.). And it works well against Sentinels. Moonsault Kick is useless. Sonic Boom should always be used in any place you would use it to start with. And Guile can land a super off of a lucky hit in the air. Charlie has...a better c.hk. And Sonic Break has some use for chipping with Doom-b, whereas Sonic Hurricane may as well be avoided in favor of Summersault Justice. -DFA Posted by Juggrknott on 03:02:2002 03:05 AM: Personally, I'd rather face Charlie than Guile any day of the week. But Charlie does have an impressive Ken-like game in close with the normals... and if you can maintain that "sweet spot" distance where his sonic boom is most effective, he can be somewhat of a force on the ground. Nothing really stands out to me when I think about Charlie's game, though... -Jugg "Thinking about trying to bring Dhalsim back, he's so under-used it's a shame." Posted by MadHatter on 03:02:2002 03:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Dhalsim vs Stryder: Hm... I've played a couple of matches with Stryder/Doom. I feel this match could go either way. I feel it's who ever gets the rush down first is the person who wins. Sim's back assist would knock Doom out before his rocks could get started. The difference in this rush down is that, Stryder would need Levels and Sim doesn't need levels. I feel this match is a tie, disagree with if you want, but try rush down with Sim with either Sent-G, Spiral-A, or Storm-A. i feel that you don't know anything about marvel2 and that you should get your facts strait before trying to make tier threads and what not. Posted by sabretooth on 03:02:2002 05:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by Devil X what im talking about is these three characters, with any assist, at worst are 4/6 in match ups. spiral with the right assist doesnt getted owned by doom, getting owned is like magneto vs doom or strider vs BH, thats flat out no chance of fighting a winning battle. spiral can definately fight doom even though it requires alot of thought on the spiral players side. same thing with cable vs sentinel, it all depends , of course cable has an advantage if he has like 4 bars but if he only has one or know bar, hes completely owned. sim vs storm? ive never seen this match personally but i couldnt imagine ANYONE owning storm if shes armed with the right assists, shes just too good in the game. maybe you can explain this match up more in depth for me :P I think that any top tier with the right assists wouldn't die easily to any others. If you have Strider with Sent and Doom behind him, there's no top tier team who will clearly destroy it. cable/doom/comm works against rushdown and makes harder for spiral to got the sapec control she needs so much. A team built around one point top tier usually makes this top tier able to compete with any other. Dhalsim vs Storm - dhalsim got the advanatage with teh raneg and priority of his HKs. If storm gets too close, Dhalsim is faster thna her in the air AND has the instant teleport. She can't runaway from him. remember that if you're talking about Storm/Sent/Comm you might as well fight Sim/Sent/Comm Sent vs Cable - Same thing. even with the right assists(lets say Bh and Comm) Sent will have a tought time against a Cable/Sent/Cammy team. A careful cable player will still probably kill sent slowly(see Wong vs valle at MWC), and having a good chance to punish assists too. Spiral vs Doom - Try Spiral/anyone vs the old and popular Doom/Cable AAA or Sent/BH. Spiral will barely have any chances to load knives because of Doom's crap on the screen and BH's assist. If cable's AAA is second, Doom gets more control and the option to CAHVB a loading. If he gets Sent, Spiral, even with swords, will have to past this before locking Doom on teh ground. Its just too hard for her(look for Duc vs Nyte matches, Nyte wins one with Doom, and loser other by brnging cable in when Doom was killing spiral). I think thats it. My top tier - Sent, Storm, Spiral, Magneto, Strider, Cable, maybe Cyclops/Doom/Ironman too Posted by BshidoHEAT on 03:02:2002 05:59 AM: quote: Originally posted by Yumi Saotome Yes, lets get away from Hayato. Talk about Charlie! Other than my previous reply, explain to me why Charlie is 2nd tier and what strats go with him? True that! Charlie is alright, I think he's more ground oriented person more than guile is. Posted by sabretooth on 03:02:2002 06:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL Good god, someone else finally realizes it! I just think its fair to mention this. When I started reading Fighters.net, a long time ago(before the B4 tourney, I don't even know if SRK was around) Kdcmarvel made a huge post about how Cyclops could, on point, deal with any top tier but Cable. Much props to him. I think nobody believed it at the time(he's an AAA) but I loved that thread and have it printed until today. I keep believing Cyclops is top tier since most of the old reasons(HKs kicks Sent's ass, Storm can't run, Cyc outchips many people, infinite is useful...) remains true today. I'm glad to see that everybody is now accepting this, and glad to remain using Cyc as an AAA all that time, so I now have lots of experienec with an AAA that's also a great fighter. We should make a new Cyc thread, because he rocks. Posted by Bojack on 03:02:2002 06:07 AM: Hey is it just me or is Charlie's air throw harder to roll out of than Guile's? Chuck's Sonic Boom also moves slower. If Chuck had something like the Sonic Hurricane he'd beat the hell outta Guile. Actually, I already think he beats the hell outta Guile. He's a better battery than Guile cuz he can jump up and crescent kick all day and there isn't a whole lot many characters can do about it. ---B.j. Posted by sabretooth on 03:02:2002 06:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by MadHatter i feel that you don't know anything about marvel2 and that you should get your facts strait before trying to make tier threads and what not. Look at you, a nobody talking crap to a tourney player. give us some facts, fool Posted by Pryde on 03:02:2002 09:05 AM: MadHatter: you're gonna tell me I don't know shit about MvC2? Nigga, you need to recognize, I'm a well respected player in the MvC2 community. You want proof? Go ask shadyk, go ask clockw0rk, go ask Viscant, hell you can even Justin Wong if you want to. I post my thoughts based on experince and I was playing an AVG stryder/doom, it wasn't great like Valle's or Clockw0rk's, but he, I rushed that shit down with Sim and projectile assist backing me up. So whatever, think what you wanna think. Since you're a genius, why don't you analyze all these fucking matches? Go make a thread, I encourage you, let's see who would know more than who. Posted by BigDave315 on 03:02:2002 09:14 AM: man, this is important stuff, i will remember all this when i go to pick my teams in a tournament, now that i know who the best 2nd tiers are, i can finally get 1st or 2nd place! thanks guys, keep up the good work! WNED Posted by Gen2000 on 03:02:2002 10:46 AM: How about 2nd tier X-Women discussion? Marrow, Rogue, Psylocke (on point, not whoring her out on AAA )? All pretty strong candidates for 2nd tier IMO. I'm too tired to post more right now though, but I just wanted to bring them up. Peace.. Posted by Dasrik on 03:02:2002 12:33 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bojack Hey is it just me or is Charlie's air throw harder to roll out of than Guile's? Chuck's Sonic Boom also moves slower. If Chuck had something like the Sonic Hurricane he'd beat the hell outta Guile. Actually, I already think he beats the hell outta Guile. He's a better battery than Guile cuz he can jump up and crescent kick all day and there isn't a whole lot many characters can do about it. Dash forward and hit Charlie in the back. Moonsault kick is bleh. Being able to drop straight down from a jump is not as important as being able to stay in the air in MvC2, and Guile definitely trumps Charlie in that category. Other things Guile has on Charlie: * better reach. Guile's j.hk > Charlie's j.hk. * harder to escape Sonic Boom. Charlie's boom may be slower, but small characters can duck it. * Sonic Hurricane is a better overall super than Sonic Break Right now I don't see Charlie having any substantially better fights than Guile, but if I put my head to it I might come up with something. P.S. mad hatter, shut up. Posted by MadHatter on 03:02:2002 01:29 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde MadHatter: you're gonna tell me I don't know shit about MvC2? Nigga, you need to recognize, I'm a well respected player in the MvC2 community. You want proof? Go ask shadyk, go ask clockw0rk, go ask Viscant, hell you can even Justin Wong if you want to. I post my thoughts based on experince and I was playing an AVG stryder/doom, it wasn't great like Valle's or Clockw0rk's, but he, I rushed that shit down with Sim and projectile assist backing me up. So whatever, think what you wanna think. Since you're a genius, why don't you analyze all these fucking matches? Go make a thread, I encourage you, let's see who would know more than who. alright, no reason to get upset. you actually think that magneto is the best character? and that blackheart is top tier? why would dhalsims rushdown be even with strider if storm or magnetos rushdown isnt? a good strider should have the upper hand against a mags or storm. Posted by Pryde on 03:02:2002 03:54 PM: Mad Hatter: if you actually took the time to read my first post on this thread, you would have noitced that I wrote that the top tier list is in no specific order and so is the second tier list. Sim's rush down is more effective against certain people, just like certain charcters can fight other characters better. Sim beats Storm, Magneto, Spiral. He's that good, I've been exploring him for awhile and he's pretty solid. His assist isn't that great, but if you can combo off of it, you can deal major damage, I use type-g. About Stryder, true a good Stryder should have the upperhand in this battle, theoritlcally that is. As many people know, no one has the perfect Stryder/Doom. I think Stryder is over rated and I really haven't been completely locked down by S/D, I've played Arturo's, Eddie Lee's, and Clockw0rk's Stryder, so clearly I have experience in this field. Black Heart: Once he was the 4th best in the game and since wave dashing was found out, he's been pushed the to the second tier. His full potential still hasn't been explored yet, cuz he may seem to be the easiest character, but someone out there realy needs to find out how to do his dash canceling into superjump after HOD. Also keep in mind, people say Stryder isn't nothing w/o Doom, but keep in mind that BH is nothing w/o AAA. So that's all I'm gonna say about that, I hope you see the picture I'm developing. Posted by MadHatter on 03:02:2002 04:39 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Mad Hatter: if you actually took the time to read my first post on this thread, you would have noitced that I wrote that the top tier list is in no specific order and so is the second tier list. Sim's rush down is more effective against certain people, just like certain charcters can fight other characters better. Sim beats Storm, Magneto, Spiral. He's that good, I've been exploring him for awhile and he's pretty solid. His assist isn't that great, but if you can combo off of it, you can deal major damage, I use type-g. About Stryder, true a good Stryder should have the upperhand in this battle, theoritlcally that is. As many people know, no one has the perfect Stryder/Doom. I think Stryder is over rated and I really haven't been completely locked down by S/D, I've played Arturo's, Eddie Lee's, and Clockw0rk's Stryder, so clearly I have experience in this field. Black Heart: Once he was the 4th best in the game and since wave dashing was found out, he's been pushed the to the second tier. His full potential still hasn't been explored yet, cuz he may seem to be the easiest character, but someone out there realy needs to find out how to do his dash canceling into superjump after HOD. Also keep in mind, people say Stryder isn't nothing w/o Doom, but keep in mind that BH is nothing w/o AAA. So that's all I'm gonna say about that, I hope you see the picture I'm developing. yea, sorry bout that. it's cool. i like how you do the matches thing, it's good idea for a tier thread. Posted by sabretooth on 03:03:2002 06:49 AM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by BigDave315 man, this is important stuff, i will remember all this when i go to pick my teams in a tournament, now that i know who the best 2nd tiers are, i can finally get 1st or 2nd place! thanks guys, keep up the good work! WNED 2nd tier chars are important to make a top tier team. IM/Sent/Tron(2 second tiers) is Justin Wong's team, and he got first at every single tourney he enters. Good for him that he knows how 2nd tiers like IM and Tron fares against other top characters, and was able to make a top tier team with 2nd tier chars. people who don't know the 2nd tier, will lose very fast to his team, because they know what it can do. Posted by Pryde on 03:04:2002 05:28 AM: sabretooth: I agree with that in a way, but don't get me wrong, Most top tier teams consist of 2 top tier characters and 1 top tier assist or 2nd tier character, how ever you want to think of it. Come to think of it, as of now, I really can't think of any top tier teams that actually has 3rd tier character in it. Unless you want to count Ken as 3rd tier. Hm..... I'll post more later. Posted by Remy Saotome on 03:04:2002 05:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Gen2000 How about 2nd tier X-Women discussion? Marrow, Rogue, Psylocke (on point, not whoring her out on AAA )? All pretty strong candidates for 2nd tier IMO. I'm too tired to post more right now though, but I just wanted to bring them up. Peace.. I actually play that as a team. Rogue (DASH)/Psylocke (PORJ)/Marrow (AAA). I put Psy on Proj for this team because it helps out Marrow's game to have a normal projectile and her Bonerangs. Anyway, Rogue has a crazy in-your-face game. Her only trouble is getting in, but once she's there, she can do some mad damage and get some crazy comboes going. Psylocke isn't 2nd tier, IMO. She doesn't get damage in well enough. She can run away, though. The teleport -> Psi-Thrust and her multiple jumps make it difficult to get ahold of her. Also, her s.fp has high priority. I would say that Psylocke's better at holding a lead than she is at actually winning. Marrow I thought was more high third tier. But Pryde told me some stuff about her, and now I can see her being 2nd tier. She has the wierd projectiles and the multi-jumps. Plus, the Grab'N'Ride can be canceled into Spinal Explosion and Feel Like Pain! does mad chip damage. She can put a lot of pressure on her opponent. I think she needs a normal projectile to back her up, though. Katta wa! Remy Saotome Posted by raekwon187 on 03:04:2002 05:59 PM: pryde i hope u black 4 droppin the n-bomb like that Posted by TS on 03:04:2002 07:57 PM: Hard to hit Charlie in the back if he called Doom/Spiral/Sent before he did the kick. Guile's d+Fierce can be whiffed like a mofo for meter during a super jump Charlie's Sonic Boom super gets you a safe tag, depending on ranges. Doesn't work in the corner, IIRC. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...4006#post904006 Anyone wanna give me some help with the timing for Bonerine's mashed Fierce BB xx BBX combo? I keep having to do Crouching Short, crouching Forward xx BBX, instead of being able to add a crouching Fierce and Fierce BB before the super with any confidence. Posted by Viscant on 03:04:2002 10:53 PM: Can't believe this thread is still alive. Also can't believe my top tier list was scoffed at. !!! Anyways... On Charlie/Guile. I guess at this point I'd say that Guile is better than Charlie, but not by too much. Pro for Charlie: --WAY WAY WAY better throws. Guile's throws are much ass, but Charlie kick throw is essentially a full screen snapback as no top tier character except maybe Strider can roll out of throw, short, snapback. Charlie/your favorite top tier character/whoever can potentially destroy a team very quickly...one throw can lead to the other team's main assist getting brought in and potentially devastated quickly, probably causing the other guy to burn piles of meter to save his assist at the least. --Charlie has really good supers too. Like was mentioned, sonic break super is a safe tag, crossfire blitz gets him across the screen pretty safely and recovers fast so you can do safe DHCs (such as off judgement day, behind HSF, behind photons, etc) and set up throws afterwards. He can repeat supers in the corner way easier than Guile, seems to do more damage (never sat down and checked for sure, so that's only what my eye says). --Better jump in than Guile. Guile jumpins blow goats. Charlie moonsault kick and j.rh are at least decent. --Better team super. But the downside is you have to pick projectile assist type. You have no idea how annoying completely random Juggernaut team supers are when they're safe. I'm not talking about random as in, that was unexpected, but random as in "what the hell was he thinking" random. Seriously, that makes you play the whole ground game with fear. --Better projectile. You can occasionally push someone into it. Doesn't seem to happen often at all with Guile. Neither seems to happen much as compared XSF. Largely pointless since throwing a single projectile can usually lead to that one hit getting cancelled out and eating the other guy's 120-1. Pro for Guile: --Better air maneuverability. 100% safe air flash kick is too good. That's an airdash right there. --Builds better meter. --Better air combos. Both Charlie/Guile target corner combo (launch, 1234, fierce, rh, land on with short [insert rh for Charlie], short, fwd, low fierce, set up backbreak into assist or relaunch option [or ground throw for Charlie]) is easier for Guile, does more damage, easier to reset since Guile also has air flash kick option which comes in real handy. Charlie's damaging midscreen air combo is rollable (launch, 1234 [take out hits depending on size], moonsault kick, land on them with rh, super), or if you don't do that option, Charlie will knock them down. Guile has the option of comboing into super (then DHCing to hail) or ending with flash kick which does more damage than Charlie's version, let's you build meter when you're falling and gives you more options since you'd rather the opponent was above you and not below. --Better assist. Charlie assist misses people in close. Guile assist acts as true anti-air. Does less damage though. They're both good, but using Charlie in most teams is taking less when you could have more. Both characters are used primarily for the same purpose...to pick Sentinel out of the air, fill air area with crap so Storm can't take off, etc. Charlie's best use is as a starter. Throw into snapback, combo into hail etc. Guile's best use is as a finisher. Run away at the end, potentially harass a Sentinel with air flash kicks, etc. Both good characters...I have no idea how this turned into a comparison post. Anyways... Other random thoughts I had reading this: Morrigan is really under-rated. I'm not a good Morrigan player, but I have lots of success with her, with little top tier support (only top tier character that occasionally pairs with Morrigan is Cyclops, for me). At the very least she should be considered as an assist alternative sometimes. She sends people really really far away with her anti-air assist, her combos hurt. Someone needs to adopt her. I don't think Marrow should be up there with 2nd tier status. She's mostly a 1 trick pony. Call assist against jumpin, push them into assist (that's one of the main things I picked her for at B5, can't believe I didn't get to do it once!). Against people who always do jumpin with Magneto, then low short, this owns them. Kills helpers, stupid Gambit style crossups with Storm assist. Marrow's pretty good, but like...compared to characters like Ruby or Bison or Samurai or Colossus or whatnot, she's kinda lacking. To touch on what Pryde said about team construction, a lot of times you can fit a weaker character in if they have a good assist. I play Dhalsim/Storm/Ryu a lot...mainly take advantage or Ryu assist to help out Dhalsim/Storm (who like a good anti-air) and Ryu has pretty good combos off Dhalsim or Storm assist, plus Storm air combo sets up repeating Ryu supers in the corner (which combos into his Dhalsim combo). The only other time you fit dramatically lower tier characters into a team is on an already strong team for counter character. Like, if the other guy is playing Strider/Doom you can pick Felicia + Storm/Sentinel or Doom/Storm or Sentinel/Blackheart or Strider/Doom or Cable/Cyclops, etc. You can pick pretty much ANYONE with those 5 team combinations and enjoy good success. Those are probably the top 5 duo sets. MSP, team watts, Cable/Storm/Cyclops, warm body/Storm/Sentinel probably being the best trio sets. Hayato thoughts on other thread... --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Posted by Pryde on 03:04:2002 11:56 PM: Viscant is my hero. Posted by Pryde on 03:06:2002 08:51 PM: Viscant: I actually want to ask you something, although you probably posted somewhere, I don't know where though. What are your thoughts on Gambit? I mean, I know him pretty well, since I use to use him aa a main character. I know his j.fierce, s.fierce are pretty good, he can play good mind games with trick cards, his cajun strike is good, he can cross up with assist pretty well by doing Cajun Strike (kick off the wall) (Doom-B or Spiral-A for good chip damage). Tell me who he's good against, his cons his pros, and who has his best fights against any top and 2nd tier characters. Thanks. Posted by TS on 03:07:2002 02:56 AM: What mind games does Gambit have with kenetic/trick card? quote: Originally posted by Viscant Like, if the other guy is playing Strider/Doom you can pick Felicia + Storm/Sentinel or Doom/Storm or Sentinel/Blackheart or Strider/Doom or Cable/Cyclops, etc. You can pick pretty much ANYONE with those 5 team combinations and enjoy good success. Those are probably the top 5 duo sets. MSP, team watts, Cable/Storm/Cyclops, warm body/Storm/Sentinel probably being the best trio sets. Hayato thoughts on other thread... --Jay Snyder Viscant@aol.com Wouldn't (someone)/Storm/Doom be a better idea than Doom/Storm? They get the DHC, and you could always start Doom by holding down A2 if it's a tournament... Also I think most characters are more fond of Doom's assist than they are of Storm's, unless Spiral is involved somehow. Posted by Dasrik on 03:23:2002 08:04 PM: Time to BUMP this thread with some random notes. TS: Reason Doom/Storm works is because once that team gets two meters it makes you think twice about doing anything (not just calling an assist). Cable stops being able to sj.fierce, BH is frozen in place, Sentinel can't really fly. And if they get hit, they're going to get REALLY fucked up. Captain Commando vs. Cable: I found out Commando has a safe ground combo on Cable (not safe if blocked, though). End ground combos with c.fierce xx fierce Captain Fire. The fierce version knocks down, and you're pretty much guaranteed to land a cancel into Captain Sword the first time. Jin AAA: Is top tier now, I think. Jin's AAA is the only anti-air that truly means your opponent CANNOT approach you from the air in any way. It's also good because of (of course) its invincibility properties and its reach (like Commando, sticking out a limb on Jin risks getting clocked). You can also counter him in to get some damage off things you'd ordinarily have to block (counter HSF into blodia punch or vulcan works). Megaman vs. Sentinel: Someone mentioned in another post about Megaman that this is one of the few matches where MM NEEDS to charge his buster to survive, and I'm tending to agree with him. If you don't charge your buster, Sentinel gets to hit fierce on you for free. Charging it means you have a chance to neutralize his beam, as well as not have to block HSF and making him think twice about doing drones. If he flies, you can't push him off you, but you have the chance to make him THINK that then Mega Upper him. Megaman still loses to Sentinel though, IMO, but not 10-0 if he charges. Posted by Satomiblood on 03:23:2002 11:48 PM: I try to mix up low and top tiers.I think that watching some tourney videos and seeing the same teams over and over is a load of bullshit(no offense).All I see is Capcom/BH/Sent or Cable/Cyke/Sent and I have a question.When JWong and Valle fought at that tourney where the machine turned off.....why did they keep picking the same characters over and over?It's just a general question I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything but is there a rule that you can't pick a different team.Me?I'd get bored picking the same guy.Why no variety? Posted by SuperRob1 on 03:24:2002 01:13 AM: BlackHeart TOP Tier?? No way Blackheart is top tier, Nuff said Even with Cap and Cyclops, patience wins against Blackheart period. Posted by KrazyJones on 03:24:2002 04:19 AM: Im my opinion i really think the top tiers for mvc2 goes to Spiral, warmachine, and cyclope other is low tiers sorry pryde but my team own jooo! Posted by Sephiroth2435 on 03:24:2002 04:54 AM: Hey, whats up Pryde? I need strats and combos for Sentinel, Dhalsim, and Cammy. Peace, Sephiroth2435 Posted by Dasrik on 03:24:2002 05:57 AM: Re: BlackHeart TOP Tier?? quote: Originally posted by SuperRob1 No way Blackheart is top tier, Nuff said Even with Cap and Cyclops, patience wins against Blackheart period. That's why I think Blackheart isn't top tier. His presence alone is not enough to win fights. Even with an assist, when you get right down to it, BH is limited. He has only one way to do real damage (the one-two assist combo), his moves have startup lag which can be exploited by an opponent patiently forcing their way into range, and his options basically boil down to "run, drop assist, and run some more". So why is he so often used? Blackheart's value is stalling. He wins by not losing - by wasting time and making your opponent have to take their time to get in. BH can make it so that he easily builds two stacks of meter by the time the opponent manages to make it into range, and if he can one-two and drop assist, he's back to running away again. Throw in a few Inferno xx HODs to chip here and there, and before long your opponent is worn down a bit while BH is still chipper with meter to throw around. If BH is first, that's your cue to tag him out via DHC and let your next guy (Sentinel, Storm, or whatever) handle a flustered opponent who realizes he's losing and is going to make a lot of mistakes to get his lead back. If you have BH second, that means you have a staller character in front to do the work of conditioning your opponent, or one that can do a lot of damage in a hurry (Doom, Magneto and Strider come to mind here). DHC in BH to do some chip and then your job is so much easier because your opponent is likely to do stupid things to get the game back. The game of Blackheart is all mental. As a first character, he does his job by staying alive, building a lot of meter then getting out to lend his assist to the second better character. Second, his teammate does the damage or wears away a lead and tags in BH to a panicky opponent. Or, you can make him an assist-only character at third, and a big target for the opponent to waste your meter on (since Blackheart is never going to survive all by himself anyway). This works great on Cables. Nothing screams "AHVB" like a big black demon, and if you can get him to burn all his hard-earned meter on killing Blackheart, you can rush him down relentlessly with your remaining two characters. In short, you're right... patience does beat BH. But patience plays into a Blackheart user's hands. That's why he's still used in tournaments. Posted by FluffyXXL on 03:24:2002 08:54 AM: There is not doubt that Blackheart is a useful character. However, against top tier, Blackheart cannot compete. That doesn't mean he can't build huge amounts of meter and let the next character use them, but on his own merit, he doesn't beat any top tier charcters and most of them shut him down outright. I've gone over the matches in depth plenty of times, so I'm not going to do it again. So, look at this parallel between Blackheart and other characters that do practically the same job. Ex. BH/Sent/Commando. You start the match building meter. Assuming your opponent doesn't do anything to stop you at his point, you'll eventually start building up meter, and you can squeeze off a couple Inferno XX HOD for some chip if you want. Now, BH has done his job of building meter and you DHC to Sentinel. At most, you'll have 3 meters left. Keep in mind, even if your opponent blocked everything you did and didn't retaliate at all, he also didn't get hit at all, so up to the point where you start using your meter, your opponent has taken next to no damage. So, Sent with only 3 meters will add to the almost no damage to create a slightly damaged charcter. Even at this point, your opponent will probably have at least 2 meters of his own, and you've got Sent in with 3. Keep in mind though that your opponent has three characters. If any one of them can beat Sentinel, you're now down to Commando and Blackheart. If you're playing against MSP, pretty much both Magneto and Storm can take Sentinel, even with BH and Commando assists and with the meter. You can't even try to chip a player that has Cable anywhere near his team cuz of CAHVB. Just one does around 40% to Sentinel and that only requires two meters. But, enough with the examples. On with the main point. Now, take Megaman and put him on that exact same team. You get essentially the same strategy, play keepaway while building meter and doing a bit more than no damage. But, at least Megaman has good fights against Magneto and Storm, fights BH outright looses. Plus, he has a safe switching option instead of DHCing, thus saving you meter you can use with Sentinel. Still not a tremendous amount of improvement, but slightly better. Replace that with Spiral. Spiral will still have Sent assist for trap, and give the team a safe switch and very chip friendly assist for Sentinel to do much additional block damage. Put all that together with the fact that she does well in a lot of other fights, and you've basically got one of the best optimized teams for Sentinel. Spiral/Sent/Commando is probably one of the best Sentinel teams available. Spiral does an opening onslaught of meter building and chip, safely tags in Sent who now takes whatever life the character has left with chipping, and has the option to sit on his ass for the rest of the match while waiting for a slip-up, or he can try to cause a slip up by attacking. The point is that he has the option because of the previous chip damage Spiral did, not to mention if he could have actually killed a character with mash happy throw. Even in theory fighter, BH is not the best there is at what he does ('nuff said). Spiral has all of the same benefits of BH on point plus others. It's a lot like Viscant said before. You can tell if someone is a scrub or not if they can beat a good BH. I use that strategy all the time in tournaments and most of the time it works until i fight someone who really is a good player and knows how to fight him. When you get to that high of a skill level, BH becomes an assist only type character. You never really want him in on the fight. I'd rather have BH snapped into a match than Commando in most situations. But, I'd rather make my opponent choose from a list like Mags/Storm/Sentinel, or Storm/Sentinel/Doom, or Storm/Cable/Cyclops. Which of those would you snap in if you were BH? Answer: None of the above. Posted by TS on 03:25:2002 12:36 AM: OH MY GOD THE THREAD IS BACK. Posted by Pryde on 03:27:2002 12:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by Sephiroth2435 Hey, whats up Pryde? I need strats and combos for Sentinel, Dhalsim, and Cammy. Peace, Sephiroth2435 Hm..... I wouldn't know if you meant that as a team or as an individual, but if they were individuals, then I can help you with Dhalsim. Cammy is pretty much a no brainer and you don't really need any strats with her, but keep in mind to call projectile assist such as Sent-g and jump up and do drill to cross over. As for Sim, you can read back on my other posts to see how to use him against certain characters. Sentinel, I'm no expert with him. Posted by Sephiroth2435 on 03:27:2002 02:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Hm..... I wouldn't know if you meant that as a team or as an individual, but if they were individuals, then I can help you with Dhalsim. Cammy is pretty much a no brainer and you don't really need any strats with her, but keep in mind to call projectile assist such as Sent-g and jump up and do drill to cross over. As for Sim, you can read back on my other posts to see how to use him against certain characters. Sentinel, I'm no expert with him. I meant individuals. Yeah I pretty much have Cammy down and I'm getting better with Sentinel. But if you can, throw me up some combos and strats with Dhalsim. Peace, Sephiroth2435 Posted by powerful on 03:31:2002 10:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Captain Commando vs. Cable: I found out Commando has a safe ground combo on Cable (not safe if blocked, though). End ground combos with c.fierce xx fierce Captain Fire. The fierce version knocks down, and you're pretty much guaranteed to land a cancel into Captain Sword the first time. Isn't d.LK, d.HP safe if blocked? what about d.LK, d.HP, ninja? And if connected, I think d.LK, d.HP, Corridor or d.LK, d.HP, ninja are safe too. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I do all of this, but maybe people don't know how to fight Capcom around here. All times are GMT. The time now is 12:59 AM. Show all 198 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.